Henrik Lundqvist

[CasperX22]

If backup goalies have been getting 2 1sts + prospect or even 1 1st + prospect, one would assume star starters would demand more than Doug hamilton, when there isnt another goalie coming back.

What backup went for prices like that? Only ones that go for that have starter potential. Steve Mason for example had superior numbers across the board at a far lower cost but I don't think people would call him a star.

There's a reason why Casper is shopping Lundqvist rather than Talbot since I think he is smart enough to know he is paid too much in this league.

I don't really care which one I trade or if I trade neither to be honest. I'm perfectly fine going into the season with Lundqvist and Talbot as my goaltenders lol! Nobody has made anything close to a reasonable offer on either, so I anticipate holding both.

[Bruyns]

Agree to disagree then since I have seen plenty of teams succeed in these leagues with average at best goaltending. Any team can post good stats for 3 games in a week just like sometimes the Rangers get out scored in a week. Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think goalies don't matter but I feel like in a cap system fantasy league there are a lot of goalies with more value since you can then allocate savings to upgrade skaters.

[Bruyns]

If backup goalies have been getting 2 1sts + prospect or even 1 1st + prospect, one would assume star starters would demand more than Doug hamilton, when there isnt another goalie coming back.

What backup went for prices like that? Only ones that go for that have starter potential. Steve Mason for example had superior numbers across the board at a far lower cost but I don't think people would call him a star.

There's a reason why Casper is shopping Lundqvist rather than Talbot since I think he is smart enough to know he is paid too much in this league.

I don't really care which one I trade or if I trade neither to be honest. I'm perfectly fine going into the season with Lundqvist and Talbot as my goaltenders lol! Nobody has made anything close to a reasonable offer on either, so I anticipate holding both.

Because the goaltending market is small which was my original point haha

Argument had nothing to do with Lundqvist being bad it was that getting perceived fair value will be next to impossible with so few teams looking for goaltending there isn't much leverage to start a bidding war. Fraser is the obvious candidate and he knows he doesn't have to pay full value since there is an 82GP max so you can't dress both your goalies. Keeping both and not upgrading your roster only hurts your team but I expect you will find a satisfactory deal eventually.

[CasperX22]

Agree to disagree then since I have seen plenty of teams succeed in these leagues with average at best goaltending. Any team can post good stats for 3 games in a week just like sometimes the Rangers get out scored in a week. Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think goalies don't matter but I feel like in a cap system fantasy league there are a lot of goalies with more value since you can then allocate savings to upgrade skaters.

Sure on any given week it can happen, but wouldn't you agree 4 out of 5 weeks is still significantly more valuable than than 2 out of 5? Would you rather have consistently good goaltending or rely on luck? That is one of the most asinine arguments I've ever heard. I guess we should all load up on cheap skaters too since you know any given week any player can get hot.

[thom54]

Agree to disagree then since I have seen plenty of teams succeed in these leagues with average at best goaltending. Any team can post good stats for 3 games in a week just like sometimes the Rangers get out scored in a week. Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think goalies don't matter but I feel like in a cap system fantasy league there are a lot of goalies with more value since you can then allocate savings to upgrade skaters.

see I disagree with this, to an extent.

There are elite goalies that are worth upgrading to. Those that consistently put up stellar stats (more games of "quality starts) means a better fantasy goalie. For example, certain goalies out there have decent stats, but don't put up as many quality starts vs. a different goalie that puts up more quality starts but may have similar 'averages'.

So there is a bit more subtlety to the argument than a simple "well, an average goalie will do, and the elite ones aren't worth it" SOME elites are worth it, and some of the 'average' goalies are actually probably a tier up vs. their ... perceived value.

[CasperX22]

If backup goalies have been getting 2 1sts + prospect or even 1 1st + prospect, one would assume star starters would demand more than Doug hamilton, when there isnt another goalie coming back.

What backup went for prices like that? Only ones that go for that have starter potential. Steve Mason for example had superior numbers across the board at a far lower cost but I don't think people would call him a star.

There's a reason why Casper is shopping Lundqvist rather than Talbot since I think he is smart enough to know he is paid too much in this league.

I don't really care which one I trade or if I trade neither to be honest. I'm perfectly fine going into the season with Lundqvist and Talbot as my goaltenders lol! Nobody has made anything close to a reasonable offer on either, so I anticipate holding both.

Because the goaltending market is small which was my original point haha

Argument had nothing to do with Lundqvist being bad it was that getting perceived fair value will be next to impossible with so few teams looking for goaltending there isn't much leverage to start a bidding war. Fraser is the obvious candidate and he knows he doesn't have to pay full value since there is an 82GP max so you can't dress both your goalies. Keeping both and not upgrading your roster only hurts your team but I expect you will find a satisfactory deal eventually.

And I could say the exact same thing from the other end. He isn't making GP at this point, so why shouldn't I expect full value? There are only a few teams that I can think of that have extra goalies.

[Fraser]

If backup goalies have been getting 2 1sts + prospect or even 1 1st + prospect, one would assume star starters would demand more than Doug hamilton, when there isnt another goalie coming back.

Oversimplification in my eyes. There's isn't much of a market for a mid 30s goaltender on an 8.5 million dollar contract. Few contenders have the cap space, flexibility, or willingness to make major alterations of their roster to accommodate bringing in a goalie like this. Sure he's one of the best, but as Matt outlined fantasy works differently than in the NHL. And while Lundqvist may be the guy you Want in game 7 of the playoffs in the NHL, being worth every penny. It comes down to a law of averages in fantasy goaltending, and while it may be a safer bet to invest this large portion of you cap in a goalie like Lundqvist, you could spend far less, gamble a reasonable amount, and have the potential to really hit it big by having money invested throughout the rest of your Roster.

If you are a really wealthy team, that can afford to buy productive ELC players on the market. Having an expensive top goalie is absolutelty worth it. But a lot of the rest of us would rather focus elsewhere, while still have the possibility to really hit it big if cheaper goaltenders perform.

Because of this idea that is more prevalent than you might think, the Market isn't huge for expensive goaltending. And you will get more value by holding onto him than what you would get in a trade

[Matthew]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

[Fraser]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

Anecdotal evidence 101

[CasperX22]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

Anecdotal evidence 101

How many other players can singlehandedly determine 25% of the categories all by himself other than a goalie? No skater is winning you 4 categories by himself. Can it be done with avg goalies? Sure if you have invested wisely in the rest of your roster. Can you win with no starting goalies? Good luck. You can try and say elite goaltending doesn't matter all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

[Bruyns]

Agree to disagree then since I have seen plenty of teams succeed in these leagues with average at best goaltending. Any team can post good stats for 3 games in a week just like sometimes the Rangers get out scored in a week. Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think goalies don't matter but I feel like in a cap system fantasy league there are a lot of goalies with more value since you can then allocate savings to upgrade skaters.

Sure on any given week it can happen, but wouldn't you agree 4 out of 5 weeks is still significantly more valuable than than 2 out of 5? Would you rather have consistently good goaltending or rely on luck? That is one of the most asinine arguments I've ever heard. I guess we should all load up on cheap skaters too since you know any given week any player can get hot.

Lundqvist was only above average last year though not elite, 8th in GAA and 13th in SV% doesn't win you 4 of 5. I'm trying not to devalue your asset since my limited market point had nothing to do with his performance but when you make outlandish claims like he wins you 4 out of every 5 weeks and call me asinine I'm forced to defend my position. We both know that the gap between star skaters and cheap guys is a lot more than Lundqvist and a league average goalie so obviously no you don't load up on cheap players who can get hot.

I think it's smart to invest in top end goaltending and I've never said take the cheapest goalie you can get since they might have a hot week. I don't think Lundy is worth 8.5 since it's too much $ for the advantage he provides. I'm sure I could find 10 goalies I'd prefer to go into the year with taking cap hit into consideration.

[Bruyns]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

How many of those 8 wins would you have lost if you had Lundqvist in net and how many with Smith? Might be too big of an ask for you to look into it but Dubnyk was on an unreal run.

[thom54]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

Anecdotal evidence 101

probably somewhere in the middle ... as it's 2/30 teams there ... so ~7%. BUT ... man that is pretty much the worst goalie to the best in the second half of the season haha

[Fraser]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

Anecdotal evidence 101

How many other players can singlehandedly determine 25% of the categories all by himself other than a goalie? No skater is winning you 4 categories by himself. Can it be done with avg goalies? Sure if you have invested wisely in the rest of your roster. Can you win with no starting goalies? Good luck. You can try and say elite goaltending doesn't matter all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

You're only viewing one side of the equation. While he can win thone categories on his own he can also lose them on his own. Because of this it doesn't make him so incredibly weighted over the rest of the roster. It's all comes down to a a % based system of how often the goaltender in question has a week with stat's higher than the league average. Lundqvist may be more consistent than a lot of other guys, but he doesn't always win, all goalies go up and down over this average.

If ibwasnt linguine bed about to gonna sleeping bust out some hell sick math right now, but I can't be bothered to go through that on my phone

[kimmer]

Agree to disagree then since I have seen plenty of teams succeed in these leagues with average at best goaltending. Any team can post good stats for 3 games in a week just like sometimes the Rangers get out scored in a week. Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think goalies don't matter but I feel like in a cap system fantasy league there are a lot of goalies with more value since you can then allocate savings to upgrade skaters.

see I disagree with this, to an extent.

There are elite goalies that are worth upgrading to. Those that consistently put up stellar stats (more games of "quality starts) means a better fantasy goalie. For example, certain goalies out there have decent stats, but don't put up as many quality starts vs. a different goalie that puts up more quality starts but may have similar 'averages'.

So there is a bit more subtlety to the argument than a simple "well, an average goalie will do, and the elite ones aren't worth it" SOME elites are worth it, and some of the 'average' goalies are actually probably a tier up vs. their ... perceived value.

-said, the rinne owner

[CasperX22]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

Anecdotal evidence 101

How many other players can singlehandedly determine 25% of the categories all by himself other than a goalie? No skater is winning you 4 categories by himself. Can it be done with avg goalies? Sure if you have invested wisely in the rest of your roster. Can you win with no starting goalies? Good luck. You can try and say elite goaltending doesn't matter all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

You're only viewing one side of the equation. While he can win thone categories on his own he can also lose them on his own. Because of this it doesn't make him so incredibly weighted over the rest of the roster. It's all comes down to a a % based system of how often the goaltender in question has a week with stat's higher than the league average. Lundqvist may be more consistent than a lot of other guys, but he doesn't always win, all goalies go up and down over this average.

If ibwasnt linguine bed about to gonna sleeping bust out some hell sick math right now, but I can't be bothered to go through that on my phone

In what alternate universe is Lundqvist losing 4 categories by himself? This is getting too entertaining.

[thom54]

Agree to disagree then since I have seen plenty of teams succeed in these leagues with average at best goaltending. Any team can post good stats for 3 games in a week just like sometimes the Rangers get out scored in a week. Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think goalies don't matter but I feel like in a cap system fantasy league there are a lot of goalies with more value since you can then allocate savings to upgrade skaters.

see I disagree with this, to an extent.

There are elite goalies that are worth upgrading to. Those that consistently put up stellar stats (more games of "quality starts) means a better fantasy goalie. For example, certain goalies out there have decent stats, but don't put up as many quality starts vs. a different goalie that puts up more quality starts but may have similar 'averages'.

So there is a bit more subtlety to the argument than a simple "well, an average goalie will do, and the elite ones aren't worth it" SOME elites are worth it, and some of the 'average' goalies are actually probably a tier up vs. their ... perceived value.

-said, the rinne owner

who sleeps easily that my goaltending keeps my okay roster in it against almost any elite team.

[Fraser]

As someone who watched mike smith ruin me week after week, and then when dubnyk became my starter win like 8 out of 9 weeks, I believe goalies are very important in our format.

Anecdotal evidence 101

How many other players can singlehandedly determine 25% of the categories all by himself other than a goalie? No skater is winning you 4 categories by himself. Can it be done with avg goalies? Sure if you have invested wisely in the rest of your roster. Can you win with no starting goalies? Good luck. You can try and say elite goaltending doesn't matter all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

You're only viewing one side of the equation. While he can win thone categories on his own he can also lose them on his own. Because of this it doesn't make him so incredibly weighted over the rest of the roster. It's all comes down to a a % based system of how often the goaltender in question has a week with stat's higher than the league average. Lundqvist may be more consistent than a lot of other guys, but he doesn't always win, all goalies go up and down over this average.

If ibwasnt linguine bed about to gonna sleeping bust out some hell sick math right now, but I can't be bothered to go through that on my phone

In what alternate universe is Lundqvist losing 4 categories by himself? This is getting too entertaining.

An off week. Or a week when you match up against a really hot goalie. Even if Lundqvist is throwing up 925+ if you go up against a shut-out your gonna lose that week.

[Matthew]

Also lundqvist plays for a strong team that gets him wins.

Bryuns, I think going from smith (who was around 890 for the first half of the year to Lundy @ 920 on a good team would have made a large difference. Maybe not dubnyk-like, but with smith I was going into weeks down 3.5 to .5.

Anyways, a consistent strong goalie who can put up consistent wins too should be worth a star center at the least imo.

18 skaters for 12 categories and 1 or 2 goalies for 4 categories.

[CasperX22]

And how rare are shutouts? I would venture to say most weeks that is a draw or Lundqvist wins. Lundqvist also plays for a top team, so most weeks I would say he takes more wins. If you are winning more games you are usually going to have a better GAA. SV% would be subject to the most fluctuation, but Lundy is typically among the league leaders there as well. You can try to devalue him as much as you like in this thread, but he isn't moving unless I get full value. Goes for Talbot as well.