Buds Board Keepers League

I'm in the process of writing an article comparing Stamkos and Kessel on the PP - specifically their ability to play at the Left faceoff circle of the ice to preview tonights game. Please feel free to outline ANY thoughts you have on this. I'd love to hear it.

Stamkos >>>>>>>>> Kessel. Thats all you need to know lol.

Habber wroteCOLONStamkos >>>>>>>>> Kessel. Thats all you need to know lol.

yes thats the objective of the article . I was hoping for a little more analysis than that though.

Stamkos and Tampa Bay's options on the powerplay. Tampa has Martin St. Louis, and Vinny and Malone with a net presence much more than say the leafs have. Their net presence pulls defenders into a more of a collapse position. The controlling the zone and defenceman passing the puck will then pull one of the forward penalty killers up to get into the shooting lane. The result is a easy seam to Stamkos for the quick one time (hes got a brilliant hull-eque release). The options for the defense are to not be pulled down low by a net presence, which would result in any rebound their goalie gives up being in the net, pushing out against stamkos which opens up the point shooting lane, or well pretty much not a helluva lot of options all around. This is the reason Stamkos is doing so well under Guy Boucher's system, hes the wheelman, there are two consistent dangerous options that very often will leave Stamkos open.

Comparatively Kessel for one does not have quite the one timer, or the brilliant release of Stamkos (though he possess a great wrist shot). He is not as suited for those quite one timers, the player on Toronto who has done it a few times is Versteeg (Kadri being the passer). However Defending Torontos Powerplay is quite a bit simpler, theres a general lack of net presence, and the forwards thus play all the defenders very aggressively. You can see it when we are on the powerplay, we have puck possession but its never quite secure. Fewer options = fewer goals. Kessel finds himself in a position off the half boards where he no longer has a shooting lane, his options are to pass off or hope for a deflection, neither nearly as successful.

The difference is simple, Tampa is using great coaching to get the most out of their Talent. Toronto doesn't have the talent, so who knows if the coaching is entirely at fault (though many will claim it is, I find this to be a bigger problem on our PK).

Although not directly related, I was watching TSN the other night and they were talking about Stamkos and how he's tearing it up. But what they pointed out and showed on video is how his teammates are looking for him specifically and making some pretty insane passes through 2,3 and even 4 players cross crease and somehow it still manages to get to Stamkos (especially on the PP but also even strength). Some of the replays that were shown were absolutely ridiculous feeds by players through tons of traffic in front of the net and Stamkos either scores or gets one hell of a chance on goal. They were saying that Stamkos' setup men arent getting nearly enough credit for the gifts theyre giving him.

Just a thought, use it as you will.

I really don't think there is a comparison to be made here. Neel outlined my thoughts in more detail then I ever would have but nalied it on the head

unless its a comparison as to why stamkos is affective and kessel is not

I've watched Stamkos more than any one individual player in the NHL the last few seasons, and even further back dating to the OHL, here are the key individual differences.

Stamkos positions his body towards the target before he even receives the puck, by the time the puck reaches his stick he leans back and generates significant power from his lower core, often finishing the play on his dominant knee. The predominant play he uses is to move up and down the line playing catch long enough until he can get open in the left circle. On the follow through Stamkos generates an incredible amount of flex, which is mainly attributable to his Bauer One95, it's similar to a p91 kovalchuck curve, but the blade has a ton more hook to it. It's a great stick to use for a one timer, however it comes at the expense of a quick snap shot.

Kessel by contrast has no one timer in his arsenal, he generates his offense predominantly through the quick snap shot on his right wing. On the pp he likes to creep down the half wall of his off wing, once there he does one of three things: spin off the wall and play the cycle with the low man (Bozak), play catch with Kaberle and set up for the open wrist shot, and when those two options are unavailable he likes to fake the shot and move into the high slot for a higher percentage shot. The one timer is almost completely absent from Kessel's game, this is in large part to the stick he uses, the Bauer X:60, this stick has a ton of curve and flex and makes for excellent wrist shots, but is easily broken on the slap shot, and generates little torque on the follow through. From what I understand he has changed to a lesser curve by Easton (S19), but the pros and cons are essentially the same.

inferno31 wroteCOLONStamkos and Tampa Bay's options on the powerplay. Tampa has Martin St. Louis, and Vinny and Malone with a net presence much more than say the leafs have. Their net presence pulls defenders into a more of a collapse position. The controlling the zone and defenceman passing the puck will then pull one of the forward penalty killers up to get into the shooting lane. The result is a easy seam to Stamkos for the quick one time (hes got a brilliant hull-eque release). The options for the defense are to not be pulled down low by a net presence, which would result in any rebound their goalie gives up being in the net, pushing out against stamkos which opens up the point shooting lane, or well pretty much not a helluva lot of options all around. This is the reason Stamkos is doing so well under Guy Boucher's system, hes the wheelman, there are two consistent dangerous options that very often will leave Stamkos open.

Comparatively Kessel for one does not have quite the one timer, or the brilliant release of Stamkos (though he possess a great wrist shot). He is not as suited for those quite one timers, the player on Toronto who has done it a few times is Versteeg (Kadri being the passer). However Defending Torontos Powerplay is quite a bit simpler, theres a general lack of net presence, and the forwards thus play all the defenders very aggressively. You can see it when we are on the powerplay, we have puck possession but its never quite secure. Fewer options = fewer goals. Kessel finds himself in a position off the half boards where he no longer has a shooting lane, his options are to pass off or hope for a deflection, neither nearly as successful.

The difference is simple, Tampa is using great coaching to get the most out of their Talent. Toronto doesn't have the talent, so who knows if the coaching is entirely at fault (though many will claim it is, I find this to be a bigger problem on our PK).

From what I can tell the biggest fundamental difference is the stick each players use, one is made for the one timer, whereas another is made for the wrist shot, they each approach it differently as well. Stamkos sets his body up for the one timer each time, Kessel is more comfortable with pulling up for a wrister or cycling with the low man.

PP specific, the main feature of TB's setup is MSL, he enters the zone and plays catch with the RS of the pp long enough to shift the box on the pk away from Stamkos, at which point it's game over. It's a tough move to focus in on Stammer because Vinny/Purcell/Kubina are all legitimate point threats as well, and Malone/Downie provide strong net presence. The one method I have observed that can shutdown the TB pp is to eliminate the easy entrance. Both WSH and FLA have done this successfully, by taking this away TB is forced to dump it in and with the exception of Lecavalier who is injured, the Lightning cannot control the puck down low, which leads to an easy clearance, rinse and repeat.

Habber wroteCOLONAlthough not directly related, I was watching TSN the other night and they were talking about Stamkos and how he's tearing it up. But what they pointed out and showed on video is how his teammates are looking for him specifically and making some pretty insane passes through 2,3 and even 4 players cross crease and somehow it still manages to get to Stamkos (especially on the PP but also even strength). Some of the replays that were shown were absolutely ridiculous feeds by players through tons of traffic in front of the net and Stamkos either scores or gets one hell of a chance on goal. They were saying that Stamkos' setup men arent getting nearly enough credit for the gifts theyre giving him.

Just a thought, use it as you will.

MSL is the true MVP of TB, everything is set up through him. He single handily alleviates pressure from the LS of the ice, it's remarkable, he is able to walk the line on the point and shift the oppositions box.

MSP4LYFE wroteCOLONMSL is the true MVP of TB, everything is set up through him. He single handily alleviates pressure from the LS of the ice, it's remarkable, he is able to walk the line on the point and shift the oppositions box.

I agree he is soo under rated. The D has no choice but to follow him though. The minute they over protect stamkos, MSL will take it to the net and make them pay. I don't think any team has figured out a way to consistantly shut that pp down yet.

MSP4LYFE wroteCOLON

inferno31 wroteCOLONStamkos and Tampa Bay's options on the powerplay. Tampa has Martin St. Louis, and Vinny and Malone with a net presence much more than say the leafs have. Their net presence pulls defenders into a more of a collapse position. The controlling the zone and defenceman passing the puck will then pull one of the forward penalty killers up to get into the shooting lane. The result is a easy seam to Stamkos for the quick one time (hes got a brilliant hull-eque release). The options for the defense are to not be pulled down low by a net presence, which would result in any rebound their goalie gives up being in the net, pushing out against stamkos which opens up the point shooting lane, or well pretty much not a helluva lot of options all around. This is the reason Stamkos is doing so well under Guy Boucher's system, hes the wheelman, there are two consistent dangerous options that very often will leave Stamkos open.

Comparatively Kessel for one does not have quite the one timer, or the brilliant release of Stamkos (though he possess a great wrist shot). He is not as suited for those quite one timers, the player on Toronto who has done it a few times is Versteeg (Kadri being the passer). However Defending Torontos Powerplay is quite a bit simpler, theres a general lack of net presence, and the forwards thus play all the defenders very aggressively. You can see it when we are on the powerplay, we have puck possession but its never quite secure. Fewer options = fewer goals. Kessel finds himself in a position off the half boards where he no longer has a shooting lane, his options are to pass off or hope for a deflection, neither nearly as successful.

The difference is simple, Tampa is using great coaching to get the most out of their Talent. Toronto doesn't have the talent, so who knows if the coaching is entirely at fault (though many will claim it is, I find this to be a bigger problem on our PK).

From what I can tell the biggest fundamental difference is the stick each players use, one is made for the one timer, whereas another is made for the wrist shot, they each approach it differently as well. Stamkos sets his body up for the one timer each time, Kessel is more comfortable with pulling up for a wrister or cycling with the low man.

PP specific, the main feature of TB's setup is MSL, he enters the zone and plays catch with the RS of the pp long enough to shift the box on the pk away from Stamkos, at which point it's game over. It's a tough move to focus in on Stammer because Vinny/Purcell/Kubina are all legitimate point threats as well, and Malone/Downie provide strong net presence. The one method I have observed that can shutdown the TB pp is to eliminate the easy entrance. Both WSH and FLA have done this successfully, by taking this away TB is forced to dump it in and with the exception of Lecavalier who is injured, the Lightning cannot control the puck down low, which leads to an easy clearance, rinse and repeat.

Agreed on all points, they are playing different roles. The only player on Toronto who has attempted that one time is Versteeg. As you said the best defense against Tampa is to prevent entry, difficult to do as they do have some speed and creativity, but plausible. Once they control the zone though your in trouble, to be honest I think the best strategy is to easy a bit off the point men, and play closer to the off man. Then try to get sticks in the lane. Which likely still won't be insanely successful.

Stamkos wires that shot quick and fast, Kessel gets his wrist shot off similarly fast, but its an entirely different type of shot. Also there hasn't been a ton of occasions I've seen on the Leafs at least with Kessel even getting a shooting lane open, other teams aren't that stupid. He almost always has to try and create it himself.

bryshook wroteCOLONI agree he is soo under rated. The D has no choice but to follow him though. The minute they over protect stamkos, MSL will take it to the net and make them pay. I don't think any team has figured out a way to consistantly shut that pp down yet.

It can be shut down, just stand up the puck rusher (MSL/Stamkos) at the line, and force the dump in, without Vinny the Lightning don't have the size and strength to battle for the puck down low, it leads to easy clearances for the last man back. Once Vinny is healthy, I agree, it's unstoppable.

inferno31 wroteCOLONAgreed on all points, they are playing different roles. The only player on Toronto who has attempted that one time is Versteeg. As you said the best defense against Tampa is to prevent entry, difficult to do as they do have some speed and creativity, but plausible. Once they control the zone though your in trouble, to be honest I think the best strategy is to easy a bit off the point men, and play closer to the off man. Then try to get sticks in the lane. Which likely still won't be insanely successful.

My problem with that is that you are conceding the zone, and TB's most dangerous when set up on the pp. At that point you just have to hope they don't beat you, and more often than not, they beat you. I'd rather take my chances with MSL/Stamkos beating one or two pk'ers one on one and driving it to the net, than let them pick me apart with their LS-RS one time set up.

inferno31 wroteCOLONStamkos wires that shot quick and fast, Kessel gets his wrist shot off similarly fast, but its an entirely different type of shot. Also there hasn't been a ton of occasions I've seen on the Leafs at least with Kessel even getting a shooting lane open, other teams aren't that stupid. He almost always has to try and create it himself.

I couldn't agree more, it seems like none of our top shooters ever get a clear shooting lane, and I blame it on Wilson. When you have a puckmover of Kaberle's ilk that should be enough to get open looks for your shooters, but it hasn't. It has lead to NOTHING! And I blame Ron Wilson's set up for that, it's far too static, and I feel he places too much emphasis on Kessel as the puck carrier/playmaker as opposed to leaning on Kaberle, and looking to Kessel as the passenger who gets open and buries what is given to him. I also can't understand why the Leafs don't attempt to play off of the RS, and then move it back to Kessel for the open look. Instead they continually go to the RS with no success.

MSP4LYFE wroteCOLON
My problem with that is that you are conceding the zone, and TB's most dangerous when set up on the pp. At that point you just have to hope they don't beat you, and more often than not, they beat you. I'd rather take my chances with MSL/Stamkos beating one or two pk'ers one on one and driving it to the net, than let them pick me apart with their LS-RS one time set up.

Well the first thing you want to do is not concede the zone obviously, but this isn't going to work all the time. Once they set up, your going go be fucked regardless. The only option now is to maintain your box and not get stretched out by the point threat, or play the point threat aggressively and force the D men to make the play. Neither is a great option, but better than what most teams are doing, and better than what Toronto will likely do tonight.

MSP4LYFE wroteCOLON I couldn't agree more, it seems like none of our top shooters ever get a clear shooting lane, and I blame it on Wilson. When you have a puckmover of Kaberle's ilk that should be enough to get open looks for your shooters, but it hasn't. It has lead to NOTHING! And I blame Ron Wilson's set up for that, it's far too static, and I feel he places too much emphasis on Kessel as the puck carrier/playmaker as opposed to leaning on Kaberle, and looking to Kessel as the passenger who gets open and buries what is given to him. I also can't understand why the Leafs don't attempt to play off of the RS, and then move it back to Kessel for the open look. Instead they continually go to the RS with no success.

Toronto's powerplay is horrific. My biggest issue is simple the passing, we pass d man to d man, or to Kessel but its passing for passings sake. The whole point of this is to open the shooting lanes, pull PKers and get them out of position. Its something I never see done for us, every PK knows where he is and is rarely ever out of position on our powerplay cause we simply dont challenge them. Its also the reason we get beat to every loose puck in front of the net. Your right we got to utilize Kaberle back there, but no ones moving, we let the lanes get covered and just kind of stand there. Kaberle then can either go to Kessel or to the other D men, neither of them have shots. The goals we get on the powerplay are off the break through into the zone, or Kessel or someone else has to make the play happen themselves. Its ridiculous.

Ron Wilson aside from everything else people blame him for, has the biggest issue with special teams. His system may work, but we don't have that level of talent, nor is it on the horizon. He doesn't make the best of what hes got.

Also theres a ton of Criticism cause Phaneuf can't get his shot on target, and I agree its shitty that he can't. At the same time, with our static powerplay, I can't imagine hes seeing a ton of things to shoot at. Without opening the lanes no shot thats low will ever get through, so hes got to go high.

inferno31 wroteCOLONWell the first thing you want to do is not concede the zone obviously, but this isn't going to work all the time. Once they set up, your going go be fucked regardless. The only option now is to maintain your box and not get stretched out by the point threat, or play the point threat aggressively and force the D men to make the play. Neither is a great option, but better than what most teams are doing, and better than what Toronto will likely do tonight.

Well once the gain the zone, you need to take away Stamkos LS prescence, push a pk'er onto him at all times, it will force him into the middle of the ice where he is far less effective, and thusly the TB pp as a whole. I'd much rather be beaten by the other TB players than Stamkos.

inferno31 wroteCOLONToronto's powerplay is horrific. My biggest issue is simple the passing, we pass d man to d man, or to Kessel but its passing for passings sake. The whole point of this is to open the shooting lanes, pull PKers and get them out of position. Its something I never see done for us, every PK knows where he is and is rarely ever out of position on our powerplay cause we simply dont challenge them. Its also the reason we get beat to every loose puck in front of the net. Your right we got to utilize Kaberle back there, but no ones moving, we let the lanes get covered and just kind of stand there. Kaberle then can either go to Kessel or to the other D men, neither of them have shots. The goals we get on the powerplay are off the break through into the zone, or Kessel or someone else has to make the play happen themselves. Its ridiculous.

Ron Wilson aside from everything else people blame him for, has the biggest issue with special teams. His system may work, but we don't have that level of talent, nor is it on the horizon. He doesn't make the best of what hes got.

Also theres a ton of Criticism cause Phaneuf can't get his shot on target, and I agree its shitty that he can't. At the same time, with our static powerplay, I can't imagine hes seeing a ton of things to shoot at. Without opening the lanes no shot thats low will ever get through, so hes got to go high.

Everything is static, and we lack smart decision makers on boards, or perhaps even size, it's difficult to tell since both appear to be lacking.

The entrance also sucks, Kaberle is the only able to enter consistently, and once he does there aren't many passing options as you alluded to above, it all falls on the shoulders of RW. As for Dion, I couldn't agree more, he is forced right to the top of the blueline every pp it seems, at that position it is very difficult to generate any quality opportunities.

kessel is scared to play in the middle of the ice. Even on a powerplay.

He seems reluctant to unload one timers like Stamkos does from the half board area too which now a days seems to be the hot spot on the PP. This is just my opinion too...but I dont think kessel has ANY business being a puck carrier on the PP. Kessels puck control skills are actually quite limited and he gets pushed off the puck WAYYYYYYYYYYYY too much

I don't really know what else to add...

I dont like kessel maybe?