Buds Board Keepers League

bryshook wroteCOLON Lets not get ahead of ourselves here, Tsn itself wasn't ever voted on. The vote that you are talking about was this "Use one sole source of objective information to resolve any position disputes like TSN". We went with it blindly and then a few members like nick, kareem and myself took the time to look over both sides and saw that despite the reputation, sportsnet was heads and tails above tsn oh so very liberal positions. Tsn is not even close to on the ball, it wouldnt surprise me if roberto luongo has G/W eligability.

the closest thing to having Luongo as G/W is having Byfuglien only as D, which is what happens on sportsnet.
now, jokes aside..

bryshook wroteCOLONI dont get the out cry here we are still following what we voted on but we have just discovered a more accurate source, I figured everyone would post yeah you are right lets switch. I really didnt see this debate ever happening.

Fact is, the source you guys want is actually much worse, especially when it comes to our league's purposes, as i tried to explain here:
http://www.bbklhockey.com/viewtopic.php ... =20#p18993

kyuss wroteCOLON

bryshook wroteCOLON Lets not get ahead of ourselves here, Tsn itself wasn't ever voted on. The vote that you are talking about was this "Use one sole source of objective information to resolve any position disputes like TSN". We went with it blindly and then a few members like nick, kareem and myself took the time to look over both sides and saw that despite the reputation, sportsnet was heads and tails above tsn oh so very liberal positions. Tsn is not even close to on the ball, it wouldnt surprise me if roberto luongo has G/W eligability.

the closest thing to having Luongo as G/W is having Byfuglien only as D, which is what happens on sportsnet.
now, jokes aside..

bryshook wroteCOLONI dont get the out cry here we are still following what we voted on but we have just discovered a more accurate source, I figured everyone would post yeah you are right lets switch. I really didnt see this debate ever happening.

Fact is, the source you guys want is actually much worse, especially when it comes to our league's purposes, as i tried to explain here:
http://www.bbklhockey.com/viewtopic.php ... =20#p18993

PLAYERS LIKE BUFFY WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE GRANTED DUAL. No one site is perfect and there are exceptions where ever you go, but this site is far closer to the truth. I read your argument before but unfortunatly dismissed it as nothing to change my mind. What you are saying is that everyone switches around from time to time so why shouldn't they be granted dual? I will use malkin as an example here, plays center obviously right (talking last year what he does this season is up in the air) however he probably took three shifts a game on crosby's wing and then played the point on the power play. Now by your logic he should have C/W/D eligability. Just because a guy has a couple shifts here and there shouldnt warrant mulitple eligability. Alex burrows entire preseason last season as a center and then played on regular season game this year as center (mid way through the season) now he is 100% a winger but still lined up there didnt he. There are for sure multiple dual eligable guys, the people everyone has been arguing since day one, the will still be granted dual eligability. What is trying to be done here truely isn't unthinkable. It changes hardly anything, as sportsnet has everyone in the positions you were counting on already. If there is a discrepancy which there will be such as Zett who undoubtably played more center but should have winger eligability as well, if will be granted. The only thing going on here is a suggestion of site changing, not rule changing.

bryshook wroteCOLON PLAYERS LIKE BUFFY WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE GRANTED DUAL. No one site is perfect and there are exceptions where ever you go, but this site is far closer to the truth. I read your argument before but unfortunatly dismissed it as nothing to change my mind. What you are saying is that everyone switches around from time to time so why shouldn't they be granted dual? I will use malkin as an example here, plays center obviously right (talking last year what he does this season is up in the air) however he probably took three shifts a game on crosby's wing and then played the point on the power play. Now by your logic he should have C/W/D eligability.

Nope, that's a terrible logic that you for some reason attached to me.
In fact, guess what, at the moment Malkin is only a C on TSN.

Just because a guy has a couple shifts here and there shouldnt warrant mulitple eligability.

in fact TSN does not.

Alex burrows entire preseason last season as a center and then played on regular season game this year as center (mid way through the season) now he is 100% a winger but still lined up there didnt he.

Burrows is only a W on TSN.

I thought you didn't read my previous post cause yours ignored my points.

There are for sure multiple dual eligable guys, the people everyone has been arguing since day one, the will still be granted dual eligability. What is trying to be done here truely isn't unthinkable. It changes hardly anything, as sportsnet has everyone in the positions you were counting on already. If there is a discrepancy which there will be such as Zett who undoubtably played more center but should have winger eligability as well, if will be granted. The only thing going on here is a suggestion of site changing, not rule changing.

since sportsnet's positions are more restrictive but not more accurate (quite the opposite, as a result) than TSN's, changing site and using a committe would only mean more subjectivity, controversy and wasted time.

Ok Bryan is trying to put it in simple terms which is correct and where it should be. The argument on the table is that Rogers Sporstnet is a more credible source for hockey player positions than TSN. And you state that due diligence was done to support this fact. I would like to state my personal opinion in that i strongly disagree. If you are comparing say 10 players that Kareem or some of you may have looked up they may be similar, but if we are going to do some with this much impact we are not going to do it half ass and make assumptions that the 10 most talked about players may or may not be correct on Sportsnet. Tsn supports dual eligibility on players and their player database is light years ahead in terms of number of players included. For example just look at the number of players listed on the "Z" page of sportsnet. http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/players/ Now look at the players found on the "Z" page on TSN http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?letter=Z

Now we want to use this as a source for determining positions for players in a 30 team league with 65 man rosters? Introduce a "committee"? Our goal in this league is to eliminate "subjectivity" in various forms. This would be in fact increasing subjectivity. How can anyone in there right mind come to the conclusion that Rogers Sportsnet is more accurate than TSN when comparing players positions or any other info for that matter, for a select few players? TSN is the leader for hockey media in this country which bleeds hockey. They do the entry draft, more hockey shown than any other networks, they do the Lottery picks. I would be willing to lay money down that TSN has a staff dedicated to hockey that would rival the NHL staff itself (which is brutal btw). I don't think people are reading other peoples posts and listening to what they are saying. TSN has dual eligible players in there database...well..because they are actually eligible to play at both positions and have proven so in the past. Its a part of hockey.

And i truly hope people will take my opinion as one for the league and not for personal gain. The player i have, Zetterberg, is as easy a case you can get. He is the poster child for dual eligibility, so I am not worried about him at all. I am worried about handcuffing ourselves with this late uproar over an issue that should have been dealt with long before we are getting to drop the puck and most GM's have there rosters set and cap set. Roster submission is September 27th. People made trades all summer long based on certain players having dual eligibility and Sportsnet doesnt support dual eligibility. Really...Go look. That part of putting a players position was broken in there system while entering the players. You can only enter one position. sarcasm..obviously.

If people want to get together and create a database of all the players in our league and do a case study to validate there listed positions, by all means lets set it up and build a case study that we can use as a defense for implementation next season. If we want to be fair and objective that is the best way to do this. Say if a player has played 25% or more at a certain position they can be eligible to be dual. Otherwise they stay single...etc. No way in hell we can do that right now for this season.

It's funny how badly bias is coming into play here, I'm beginning to see why Nick was so frustrated with me last year...How the fuck can a player have dual eligibility before the season even begins...Some of you are making ridiculous arguments, Mik, Kyle and Shiv I will rebut the stupidity of your claims when I get home from class, ciao for now.

MSP4LYFE wroteCOLONIt's funny how badly bias is coming into play here, I'm beginning to see why Nick was so frustrated with me last year...How the fuck can a player have dual eligibility before the season even begins...Some of you are making ridiculous arguments, Mik, Kyle and Shiv I will rebut the stupidity of your claims when I get home from class, ciao for now.

Simple. We are not in a real time environment where we can change positions daily therefore, we have a history built up and recorded which is used as a source of information for where said player is most likely to play throughout the course of a season. You can rebut all you like but that statement is simple and true. To argue that there should not be dual eligibility in fantasy hockey is just insane considering i believe you were the one initially arguing that Richard Park took faceoffs yet ran over to the wing after every draw. He in fact was a dual eligible player on every shift which i don't really have a problem with and agreed with your reasoning. To also suggest we limit our available resources and use a subpar source of info like Sportsnet and form a committee to make adjustments throughout the year in a salary cap system is bonkers for now. If that type of idea is warranted, lets put forth the proposal and set it up and start recording some data all season to justify it. The only way to get to the bottom of this is to email both TSN and Sportsnet and flat out ask "What criteria do you use to determine a players position in your database and how often are changes made if ever?" I'm gonna email Bob McKenzie

I don't care what anyone says, there is absolutely no fucking chance we're going to use sportsnet over tsn.. it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Sportsnet is a fucking joke compared to even espn or the score let alone tsn.

I'm getting tired of everyone wanting to make this league as hard as possible. I, for example, make a few strategic trades this off season with the rules what they are then someone has a problem with the system at hand. Ok, that's fine.. the CC looks into it and determines a resolution. They choose to use one single site and ok, the terms "like tsn" was used but why wouldn't we use the BEST site for this????? Now, 2-3 weeks before the season's supposed to start people are arguing to use sportsnet, the joke of all hockey sites where not a single player has dual eligibility. Shooker says that Byfuglien should have dual and a few others and really, we're only going to use this site for 4-5 players? How does that make any sense? If we use a site, it should be for every single player in the league, period.. not 4-5 players or whatever. And how do we grant dual eligibility? Form a committee? LOL. That's subjectivity at it's best. TSN has done all the dirty work for us. Imagine that, some players play out the season at different positions, wow!!

Oh, and I know Kareem's going to say every player should start the year as one position, well that's ridiculous too because no league anywhere, ever does that.. yahoo even.. they base eligibility on the year prior.

This is getting a little ridiculous.. Sportsnet over TSN is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard and I for one will think this league a joke if that was the outcome to all of this..

Raptactics wroteCOLONI don't care what anyone says, there is absolutely no fucking chance we're going to use sportsnet over tsn.. it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Sportsnet is a fucking joke compared to even espn or the score let alone tsn.

I'm getting tired of everyone wanting to make this league as hard as possible. I, for example, make a few strategic trades this off season with the rules what they are then someone has a problem with the system at hand. Ok, that's fine.. the CC looks into it and determines a resolution. They choose to use one single site and ok, the terms "like tsn" was used but why wouldn't we use the BEST site for this????? Now, 2-3 weeks before the season's supposed to start people are arguing to use sportsnet, the joke of all hockey sites where not a single player has dual eligibility. Shooker says that Byfuglien should have dual and a few others and really, we're only going to use this site for 4-5 players? How does that make any sense? If we use a site, it should be for every single player in the league, period.. not 4-5 players or whatever. And how do we grant dual eligibility? Form a committee? LOL. That's subjectivity at it's best. TSN has done all the dirty work for us. Imagine that, some players play out the season at different positions, wow!!

Oh, and I know Kareem's going to say every player should start the year as one position, well that's ridiculous too because no league anywhere, ever does that.. yahoo even.. they base eligibility on the year prior.

This is getting a little ridiculous.. Sportsnet over TSN is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard and I for one will think this league a joke if that was the outcome to all of this..

+1.

Also, you guys can say I'm biased or whatever all you want but Sportsnet listed Adams, Laich & Fleischmann as wingers and Dubinsky as a centre. TSN gives Dubinsky dual eligibility but other than him, I only have 4 centres. I just truly believe that sportsnet is fucking bogus, they're the absolute worst hockey site anywhere. I'd prefer ESPN over them and they're pretty fucking bad..

TSN is miles upon miles ahead of sportsnet...

Raptactics wroteCOLONI don't care what anyone says, there is absolutely no fucking chance we're going to use sportsnet over tsn.. it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Sportsnet is a fucking joke compared to even espn or the score let alone tsn.

I'm getting tired of everyone wanting to make this league as hard as possible. I, for example, make a few strategic trades this off season with the rules what they are then someone has a problem with the system at hand. Ok, that's fine.. the CC looks into it and determines a resolution. They choose to use one single site and ok, the terms "like tsn" was used but why wouldn't we use the BEST site for this????? Now, 2-3 weeks before the season's supposed to start people are arguing to use sportsnet, the joke of all hockey sites where not a single player has dual eligibility. Shooker says that Byfuglien should have dual and a few others and really, we're only going to use this site for 4-5 players? How does that make any sense? If we use a site, it should be for every single player in the league, period.. not 4-5 players or whatever. And how do we grant dual eligibility? Form a committee? LOL. That's subjectivity at it's best. TSN has done all the dirty work for us. Imagine that, some players play out the season at different positions, wow!!

Oh, and I know Kareem's going to say every player should start the year as one position, well that's ridiculous too because no league anywhere, ever does that.. yahoo even.. they base eligibility on the year prior.

This is getting a little ridiculous.. Sportsnet over TSN is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard and I for one will think this league a joke if that was the outcome to all of this..

Thats fine do to as you see fit, however all I ask is to check the emotion at the door when trying to make decisions for the league. I was only showing different options we could venture to eliminate all of the possible loop holes...

70 posts in 16 hours (not to mention the previous thread on this subject).

Two weeks ago this wasn't an issue. You have a problem with a player's eligibility? Talk to an admin.

There is no perfect solution to this issue.

Starpainter wroteCOLON70 posts in 16 hours (not to mention the previous thread on this subject).

Two weeks ago this wasn't an issue. You have a problem with a player's eligibility? Talk to an admin.

There is no perfect solution to this issue.

Exactly which is why we should go by one site and stick to it for the whole year and not mess with the rules 2 weeks before or during the season.

Mashley93 wroteCOLON

Raptactics wroteCOLONI don't care what anyone says, there is absolutely no fucking chance we're going to use sportsnet over tsn.. it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Sportsnet is a fucking joke compared to even espn or the score let alone tsn.

I'm getting tired of everyone wanting to make this league as hard as possible. I, for example, make a few strategic trades this off season with the rules what they are then someone has a problem with the system at hand. Ok, that's fine.. the CC looks into it and determines a resolution. They choose to use one single site and ok, the terms "like tsn" was used but why wouldn't we use the BEST site for this????? Now, 2-3 weeks before the season's supposed to start people are arguing to use sportsnet, the joke of all hockey sites where not a single player has dual eligibility. Shooker says that Byfuglien should have dual and a few others and really, we're only going to use this site for 4-5 players? How does that make any sense? If we use a site, it should be for every single player in the league, period.. not 4-5 players or whatever. And how do we grant dual eligibility? Form a committee? LOL. That's subjectivity at it's best. TSN has done all the dirty work for us. Imagine that, some players play out the season at different positions, wow!!

Oh, and I know Kareem's going to say every player should start the year as one position, well that's ridiculous too because no league anywhere, ever does that.. yahoo even.. they base eligibility on the year prior.

This is getting a little ridiculous.. Sportsnet over TSN is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard and I for one will think this league a joke if that was the outcome to all of this..

Thats fine do to as you see fit, however all I ask is to check the emotion at the door when trying to make decisions for the league. I was only showing different options we could venture to eliminate all of the possible loop holes...

My emotions are checked at the door, trust me, I only want what's best for the league.. I'm fine, my roster's fine no matter what site we use. I'm just stressing the point that sportsnet is fucking garbage and a baseball first site/channel whereas there's no debating what TSN is..

Your ideas were fine.. if we'd planned for it. There's no such thing as a bad idea.. it's just the CC has already decided a resolution.. now just the substance of what to pull info from is in question.. this close to the season we can't go changing the entire system, if you know what I mean!

Matt you do have a point, and I am guilty of this also and I apologize if my passion for the topic became a bit much as to haze the true facts I am trying to express. I just do not like the word bias being thrown about in a general form when I feel I am trying to portray the best interest for the league at this time of the year. This topic is so out there that sometimes the emotions can become a bit much. It is very hard to get your point across in here without a full fledged argument which sucks, but thats the way it is. The liberal viewpoint, is the least to get heard.

Starpainter wroteCOLON70 posts in 16 hours (not to mention the previous thread on this subject).

Two weeks ago this wasn't an issue. You have a problem with a player's eligibility? Talk to an admin.

There is no perfect solution to this issue.

This..

And to maintain an unbiased approach on this issue.. as an admin, when coming to me please remember, I will only acknowledge TSN as a source of reference. Thank you!

PS. The sad thing is that it is the same people arguing all the time which shows our interest. Nick, Kareem, Bryan, myself, Shiv, Scott, Matt, Neel, Mik, Mike..etc This affects the entire league people you need to pipe in when a thread like this is going on in the general section. The topic at hand is that Rogers Sportsnet is a better hockey site than TSN to use for player positions. Roll with that one and see what you come up with. Oh, and they don't have dual eligible players in there database which is probably 1/20th in size as compared to TSN. (probably alot less than that actually, just a guess based on the Z page)

mr. bruin wroteCOLONPS. The sad thing is that it is the same people arguing all the time which shows our interest. Nick, Kareem, Bryan, myself, Shiv, Scott, Matt, Neel, Mik, Mike..etc This affects the entire league people you need to pipe in when a thread like this is going on in the general section. The topic at hand is that Rogers Sportsnet is a better hockey site than TSN to use for player positions. Roll with that one and see what you come up with. Oh, and they don't have dual eligible players in there database which is probably 1/20th in size as compared to TSN. (probably alot less than that actually, just a guess based on the Z page)

I think we need to come up with new protocol for debating issues in the CC.. like it was in the beginning where if Ryan or Mike brang an issue to the CC then it could be discussed.. this is getting ridiculous. Every 5 minutes people want to re-write this entire league!

Mike, Matt & I I'm sure can think of a lot more pressing issues then this..

well I wrote Scott Cullen to explain some stuff with regards to TSN's database. Hope he answers me soon. Will post.

Fuck there are alot of posts on this issue...So rather than quote and debate each specific point I am going to rebut a few assumptions I believe are false, so here it goes...

1. Dual eligibility is most certainly a valid claim in certain circumstances, that goes without saying, but the assumption that it is a valid claim to start a season isn't. Let's look at a few examples to prove this,

Patrick Marleau:

To start last season Patrick Marleau was a center, no one can dispute this fact, about a month into the season he switched onto the top line LW due to a combination of factors, the emergence of Joe Pavelski as a second line center and the injury/slow start of original LW Devin Setoguchi. These are not changes that could be predicted, nor are they changes that are guaranteed to repeat themselves. In fact I could very easily make the argument that Patrick Marleau should be a concrete LW because he is not going to move back to the second line center role with the emergence of Pavelski (otherwise you would have to acknowledge the dual eligibility of Joe Pavelski which has it's own trickle down effect, not only on the Sharks but the NHL as a whole), nor will Marleau move down to the third line as he is far too valuable a commodity for that, nor would anyone argue he is going to take Joe Thornton's role as the top pivot. Therefore it logically stands to reason that Patrick Marleau is a LW UNLESS an injury occurs, but we cannot grant dual eligibility on the potential of an injury, otherwise we would have to grant dual eligibility to everyone, because certainly it should stand to reason that any player could play a different position (save for goaltenders) if enough injuries were to accrue over the course of a season.

With that in mind it is clear that no player should start the season as a dual eligible player unless they are known to be shifting through multiple positions as injuries occur before hand, off the top of my head only two players come to mind (Tyler Sloan and Wade Belak) both of whom are extras. Even a player liek Dustin Byfuglian should be granted single eligibility because it is not known yet whether or not he will move from defence back to forward until it actually happens.

Furthermore, the argument that other sites use eligibility to start a season is not an acceptable counter argument. Similar to how multiple sites only use one position to start the season is not a valid counter argument to using dual eligibility to start a season.

2. TSN is not the most up to date site on the web, quite the oppposite in fact. As demonstrated in my earlier posts they do not update positions well at the beginning of the seaosn, rather they add a second position when there is any question at all as to whether a player plays one position or another. The only exception I could find was David Steckel who is listed solely as a center. This approach is flawed for the reasons I listed above. Mid way through the season I could understand the reasoning for using TSN.ca, as it updates regulaurly during the season, but prior to the season it is a flawed resource, as it bases it's position off of last season, and not this season. So unless the CC elects to switch positions mid way through the season (which seems unlikely based on their insistence to maintain structure and consistency during the season) it is unquestionably a flawed resource.

3. If the ultimate reasoning for not using sportsnet is timing, than it should only follow that TSN.ca be stripped as a resource for next season. How can one make the argument that one site (SPNET) is unnaceptable for league consumption based on the timing of the proposal, meanwhile another (TSN) is valid, when the timing of each respective proposal was a few days apart? The logical answer is it cannot.

Furthermore, IF one is to argue SPNET is inappropriate and unfair, on account of changing the landscape of the league so close to the season, than is it not only fair that the same argument be made in regards to TSN? Granted, TSN does not take away eligibility, but it hands it out, giving unfair advantages to certain players late in the season, that not only changes the dynamics of the game, but also player value.

Alot of you are against this new proposal because it potentially diminishes player value, but that argument is flawed, because the solution such people seem to be supporting has the same effect, only on a greater scale. Take a player like Brandon Dubinsky for example, a few weeks ago he was a center, now he is center/winger, does that not change his value? Does not that not seem unfair to the original owner of Brandon Dubinsky? Surely he could have gotten more for Brandon Dubinsky had the dual eligiblity been a known variable from the start? Similarly, managers who were forced to deal single eligible players before this ruling are now at a disadvantage, as seemingly all players who played more than one position at anyone one point last season have dual eligibility. How is that fair to them? The simple asnwer is that it doesnt.

In laymen's terms, there is no solution that is "liberal" or fair to all parties, there is no black and white answer, we are choosing between two evils, and it is my opinon that the lesser of these two evils is sportsnet AND a committee.

Raptactics wroteCOLONMike, Matt & I I'm sure can think of a lot more pressing issues then this..

Doubtful.