David Backes Value Decreases...

[Scott]

if i'm not mistaken, the main flaw of kareem's proposal is that a GM can theoretically find himself without enough wingers during the season if they take too many faceoffs.

Huh? Not many wingers win 450 faceoffs lol

[MSP4LYFE]

guys this argument is going in the wrong direction. neel has made the most sense so far. we can all agree on this: changing position eligibility in the middle of the season will lead to chaos. best solution is once a year adjustments.

I agree.

[kyuss]

if i'm not mistaken, the main flaw of kareem's proposal is that a GM can theoretically find himself without enough wingers during the season if they take too many faceoffs.

Huh? Not many wingers win 450 faceoffs lol

that's why i wrote theoretically..

even if it's only one, wouldn't be weird to cheer against the number of FW your winger gets if you're thin on the wing? or to keep on getting FW from the W during playoffs?

[MSP4LYFE]

if i'm not mistaken, the main flaw of kareem's proposal is that a GM can theoretically find himself without enough wingers during the season if they take too many faceoffs.

Huh? Not many wingers win 450 faceoffs lol

that's why i wrote theoretically..

even if it's only one, wouldn't be weird to cheer against the number of FW your winger gets if you're thin on the wing? or to keep on getting FW from the W during playoffs?

The problem with my argument is that it rewards bad face off takers, and punishes good ones. Perhaps we can switch it from FOW to FAO (face off attempts)?

[Scott]

The best thing to do here is leave it the way it is.. nothing's perfect and I don't care what Nick says, Craig Adams is a winger lol

[shooker]

guys this argument is going in the wrong direction. neel has made the most sense so far. we can all agree on this: changing position eligibility in the middle of the season will lead to chaos. best solution is once a year adjustments.

now lets get a couple of things cleared up:

1. Do not put allegations on motivations. i.e. nick you suggested that scott, kareem and myself will protect our interests even if it means compromising the integrity of the stats. that is not true. all 3 of us are dedicated members of bbkl and want it to be run as perfectly as possible. the equivalent of this would be for me to say that the reason this is an issue for you is because scott, kareem and i will dominate the fow category and hence its a problem for you. but thats the wrong approach to take here because i know youre arguing this for the good of the league

2. We have had a system in place over the past year: if a GM has documented proof that Player X plays a certain position from a REPUTABLE website, that player has eligibility at that position. <---- this is not a flawed system. yesterday we got into a debate about whether oshie or backes should be a winger/center. and i have to say i agreed with you guys which is why i went out and made the marleau trade as i could foresee the positioning becoming a problem as ONE of them HAD to be a center. But there is a difference between that and players like Adams, Sharp, Giroux:

These players take a lot of faceoffs yes but not just one source but SEVERAL reputable sources list them as wingers/dual eligible. this isnt a coincidence. on a team like chicago, sharp plays wing a lot too. its not just there for no reason. he may take faceoffs a lot. but he PLAYS wing a lot too. <--- this is the definition of dual eligibility: a player who performs two different positions' duties regularly during the season. the same applies to giroux. he may take faceoffs, but he also plays wing a LOT.

this leads to one VERY IMPORTANT FACT: just because a player takes faceoffs does not mean he is not a winger.

you guys are trying to police this with faceoffs but that is not right at all.

3. This is very important. The value of a player in this league has been largely determined by what stats the produced. A player like Sharp has had increased value SIMPLY because he is dual eligible (and the owner of sharp is ENTITLED to such a return because of sharps dual eligibility which is legitimate).

The MINUTE you do this, where you say every player who takes more than 400 fow is a center, you DISTORT value in this league entirely. you DESTROY numerous trades made based on legitimate dual eligibility. notice i said legitimate - i fully understand that one of backes/oshie has to be a center. but sharp does not. sharp is a LEGITIMATE dual-eligible player. so is giroux. so is adams. so is zetterberg. so is marleau. i could keep going. there is NO WAY zetterberg is JUST a center. he plays wing on datsyuks line a LOT. but he gets more than 400 fow. to strip him of LW status would be a crime.

My suggestion is this: players who have ILLEGITIMATE dual-elibility should be stripped of their dual status every off season ONLY. Players like Sharp, Zetterberg, Marleau should NEVER lose their dual-eligibility because:

1) several reputable sources agree
2) they actually deserve it

Every off season we can go through players and either ADD dual-eligibilty or REMOVE it. However once the season starts, thats it. no more changes till the next season.

But i repeat, the ONLY WAY to gain or lose dual-eligibility is through legitimacy. legitimacy does not mean that if a player takes more than 400 fow he is a center lol. that is far too naive.

bryshook mentioned how because this is fantasy players who take fow are by definition centers in bbkl. no they are not. they play wing in the nhl. we give players status by how they play in the nhl. to take away LW eligibility from Zetterberg would COMPLETELY discredit the job Kyle has done in Boston. not only that it would be drastically unfair as Zetterberg deserves to be a LW if:

1) reputable sources agree
2) the players play the position for a good chunk of the season

that is legitimate. and that is all we should aspire to maintain.

I realize i may have repeated myself a couple of times but i hope i got through to you guys.

I think this argument is the weakest thing since the leafs penalty kill. The problem here is, to try to make your point you are using guys that don't meet the criteria we stated (not set in stone or anything) and would be allowed dual position eligibility. Zetterberg would be the only guy that exceeded those and in all honesty he is 80% center 20% wing and the guy that you listed who plays the most center.

Sharp: 241 FOW
Marleau: 316 FOW
Adams: 246 FOW
Giroux: 297 FOW

Zetterberg: 544 FOW

Now tell me in real life which one of these guys plays the most center? It is 100% Zett and the stats show it. That is our point with having a 400 FOW limit, it usually shows. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule ( ie malkin last year only 199 FOW clearly a C) but you can tell which out of the five played center last year and ALL played center on the pk so that can not be used as an argument for zetts extra fow. Zett very well may end up playing more wing this year but last year, as you seem to want the once a year thing and you would have to go off last years stats to make that system honest, he was a center for the majority of the year and should be listed as one to start the season imo. The rest should be dual eligiable or strickly wingers until those stats change. That is how I see it.

[Scott]

Are you kidding me? Man, you definitely need a break from BBKL dude.. go get laid or something, jesus

[shooker]

hahaha way to take away from my post! people wont even read it now haha.

[Scott]

Just another thing to mention.. what makes a top line C in the real NHL any more important to his team than an equally skilled top line winger? When it all boils down to it, maybe if he's better defensively or little differences like that. So, why in BBKL is it ok to have a catergohere ONLY C's score (with a few wingers minimally) but when there's a player or 2 with winger eligibility who get a couple hundred FOWs, we want to essentially ruin that skaters value? I don't get it, hockey's a team game and in fantasy understanding value is the name of the game! All this crying about a few players who get some faceoffs as a winger is ridiculous.. you guys say we're looking out for our team's best interest.. wel, I think you guys are doing that. Please stop whining

[kyuss]

The problem with my argument is that it rewards bad face off takers, and punishes good ones. Perhaps we can switch it from FOW to FAO (face off attempts)?

yeah, that i was even taking it from granted after Topher's post. He is obviously right.

[Nick]

lol. Scott trying to make this into a joke.


Regarding Adams:
He used to be a winger, no doubt! All he ever played until he was a penguin... however since moving to Pittsburgh he's been a middle man, and aside form nhl.com/tsn.ca/etc player bio pages, he's a centre: wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Adams_(ice_hockey) ), TOI stats w/line-mates (with 2 wingers), FOT #'s Craig Adams = 562 faceoffs taken, @ 43% (so he's not taking them because he's good... you can drop that argument) = 246 FOW.

You can stop saying that this is whining, it's an important issue that we need to deal with ...

Since there seems to be support for Kareems post-hoc approach, lets use FOT and notify people of the changes coming and set the mid-year point for adjustment.

I like on pace for 500 FOT for the point where a winger loses dual eligibility and becomes purely centre listed.
Dual eligibility = 82 - 499

I did not select that # at random, the 120th highest in the NHL took 445 face-offs, 30 teams x 4 centres = 120th. +50 for leeway(?needed or not?).

However, if the FOT is #4 or lower on the team, I believe that dual eligibility should remain.

the only players who are effected by this are:
Steve Begin
David Backes
Craig Adams

seems rather clear to me... 3 players who were lining up at the dot for a vast majority of last season for their NHL clubs.

So if at the 41 game mark, a player is top 3 on his team in FOT & more then 250 FOT = Centre.

[inferno31]

Dave Steckel took 600+ faceoffs last year. The washington Capitals own website says hes a LW, so does CBS, and ESPN. Wikipedia says otherwise. But if you look at his ice time he played MOST of it with Brooks Laich who EVERYWHERE is listed as a center (Wikipedia, CBS, Caps Website, ESPN etc.) but doesn't take faceoffs as often.

The issue is Steckel takes a lot of faceoffs when hes penalty killing (4 players on the ice, so its no longer 1 center 2 winger situation). But when hes playing Even strength he plays as a LW who takes faceoffs as hes better than Laich at it. But he certainly doesn't play center if you see him play, Laich does.

This is a smaller issue than you guys are making it into, I'd be okay as Regin likely will get listed as a winger. But a center is more than someone who just takes faceoffs, and its not a black and white line. To treat it as such is idiotic.

[shooker]

Just another thing to mention.. what makes a top line C in the real NHL any more important to his team than an equally skilled top line winger? When it all boils down to it, maybe if he's better defensively or little differences like that. So, why in BBKL is it ok to have a catergohere ONLY C's score (with a few wingers minimally) but when there's a player or 2 with winger eligibility who get a couple hundred FOWs, we want to essentially ruin that skaters value? I don't get it, hockey's a team game and in fantasy understanding value is the name of the game! All this crying about a few players who get some faceoffs as a winger is ridiculous.. you guys say we're looking out for our team's best interest.. wel, I think you guys are doing that. Please stop whining

Did you play any sort of hockey? house league even im not trying to be condesecending or say I played at a high level. What is the position in hockey that invovles the most skating and at least in the forward positition the most defensive reliability? Center. If you are questioning why a center is more important that a winger to a team, I fail to see how you can call yourself a great hockey mind and not just a stats sheet guy who knows fantasy leagues. The only way to show this importance is with the fow cat, so we need to make sure centers are centers and wingers are wingers.

I agree with facey dont turn this into a joke. As far as fantasy league's go this is a rather large issue and what facey is suggesting is soo far from radical.

[Nick]

h2h centre is important... lets not try and pretend otherwise.

David Steckel is listed as a centre on NHL.com... and is quiet definitely a centre... 1076 FOT

Try defining centre with any objectivity? Its taking the draw, where a player skates after the drop is system dependant.

[shooker]

h2h centre is important... lets not try and pretend otherwise.

David Steckel is listed as a centre on NHL.com... and is quiet definitely a centre... 1076 FOT

Try defining centre with any objectivity? Its taking the draw, where a player skates after the drop is system dependant.

its true. when you are playing with three dependable players the system is often first skater back takes the center position.

[Scott]

Nick, did you just use wikipedia to prove a point? Lol

[inferno31]

h2h centre is important... lets not try and pretend otherwise.

David Steckel is listed as a centre on NHL.com... and is quiet definitely a centre... 1076 FOT

Try defining centre with any objectivity? Its taking the draw, where a player skates after the drop is system dependant.

Is brooks laich not a center then?

If we can agree that they spent a lot of time playing together which they did. Your stats would say Laich is not a center, which is contradicted by every single resource I can find.
That or there are now 2 centers on that line with one winger...

[Nick]

Is brooks laich not a center then?

If we can agree that they spent a lot of time playing together which they did. Your stats would say Laich is not a center, which is contradicted by every single resource I can find.
That or there are now 2 centers on that line with one winger...

LOL did I read...my bad... he's not a centre by the criteria I listed there..

337 FOT
#5 on his team

He's a dual eligible... and he should be.

BTW-> what line did you see him playing on?

I remember him with LAICH -MORRISON - SEMIN or FEHR - MORRISON - LAICH

I dunno if I ever saw him 5v5 with david...

[inferno31]

So Brooks Laich is dual eligible despite no resource saying he plays wing.
Dave Steckel is a strict center despite many resources saying he plays wing.

You guys are trying to make something that is very subjective (positions) into an objective.

[Scott]

Just another thing to mention.. what makes a top line C in the real NHL any more important to his team than an equally skilled top line winger? When it all boils down to it, maybe if he's better defensively or little differences like that. So, why in BBKL is it ok to have a catergohere ONLY C's score (with a few wingers minimally) but when there's a player or 2 with winger eligibility who get a couple hundred FOWs, we want to essentially ruin that skaters value? I don't get it, hockey's a team game and in fantasy understanding value is the name of the game! All this crying about a few players who get some faceoffs as a winger is ridiculous.. you guys say we're looking out for our team's best interest.. wel, I think you guys are doing that. Please stop whining

Did you play any sort of hockey? house league even im not trying to be condesecending or say I played at a high level. What is the position in hockey that invovles the most skating and at least in the forward positition the most defensive reliability? Center. If you are questioning why a center is more important that a winger to a team, I fail to see how you can call yourself a great hockey mind and not just a stats sheet guy who knows fantasy leagues. The only way to show this importance is with the fow cat, so we need to make sure centers are centers and wingers are wingers.

I agree with facey dont turn this into a joke. As far as fantasy league's go this is a rather large issue and what facey is suggesting is soo far from radical.

I had a big response written out and it wouldn't post but to summarize:

Every position is as important as the other, skating does not make center any more important..

I've played hockey since I was 6 years old and at a fairly high level

I'm making this into a joke because that's exactly what it is