Buds Board Keepers League

A few FOW scott??? he's top 120 in the league (& #3 on his team).

Look past your own roster... he should be a centre, as should a few others. It's not like the list is not 50 long, its 4-8, this is something we can sort out as it comes up. This really is easier then some of you are making it seem. proposing to drop the FOW category is stupid and short-sighted, no one is down playing the importance of being a strong face-off team.

I personally like Mike & Kyles approach where we simply tell those GM's to fucking man up and be honest... I considered Sharp the high end of the grey area as he was simply filling a hole created by an injury.... but if he is shoring up the 2nd line centre-spot for the first month of the season I'd expect Bryan to admit as much and have him formally changed to centre & make any required lineup changes (with proper notice given).

I dislike using the rarely update "main" sites... if your winger is in fact an centre admit it, changing after the season-ends doesn't make sense iMO.

The purpose of limiting a team to 5 centres was to limit the main contribution to FOW to 5 players, as it is not a team-wide category, but typically relies on 3-5 players... some people always find ways to cheat/bend the rules and its fucking annoying, like last year when certain members started dressing 19 skaters and 1 goalie... The purpose/challenge here is to not find little fucking loop-holes to exploit, if you actually think your so smart and the only one who sees it your wrong.

I have sharp in my line up (many of you know I plan on trading him anyways) but I have been a suporter of this forever.

as for the 19 thing yea I will admit I did that after I was beat one week when a more active member dressed 19 players and killed me. Scott busted me and changed it first day in as I did not know it was illegal. The member that beat me was an early CC member and part of the team that put our rules together. Regardless all the people here that are trying to get this remedied are saying is people will always find a way to bend the rules, when this happens it is addressed....we are adressing it

Adams won 246 FOs last season guys and is listed as a RWer on every site.. like seriously?

Raptactics wroteCOLONAdams won 246 FOs last season guys and is listed as a RWer on every site.. like seriously?

Read my proposal...

FOW is the measure of good centre-men, FOT is a measure for playing centre for a team.

Raptactics wroteCOLONI'd say legit sites are:

TSN
Yahoo
CBS
NHL.com (the players team site)

among those, only TSN is reliable.
Those other three mess things up quite regularly. If we use yahoo, cbs and nhl.com as reliable sources we are only looking for troubles imo (arguments after arguments).

Another good source is elite prospects.

However, fact is, TSN and elite prospect use dual eligibility when it's deserved, which means quite often.

Raptactics wroteCOLONThe only way to solve this issue to please everyone is eliminate FOWs as a catergory all together. We should add a catergory that all players score in such as takeaways in place of FOWs.

i'm absolutely against this.

First of all, we can't even consider this for this season, as people built their roster taking FW into consideration, not TA.
Furthermore,even in the future, in a league that covets realism so much, you can't take FW out of it .

inferno31 wroteCOLONThis is a very difficult topic to address.

One you can't really strip a players eligibility say 2-3 weeks or even later into the season. It'll create chaos, say you do so to a team that has the max amount of centers but one of their wingers is playing center now. If you do so he'll have to put one of his players on the bench to have a full roster, causing either him to be over the cap or ice an incomplete roster. Its very difficult change to implement once the season has begun or even without fair notice for the team to make the needed adjustments.

this.
For this reason in my other league we have every player position defined in the offseason, and after an established date in august that will stay the same for the whole season.

Obviously some players could end up playing in a different position from the one they got assigned (we do use dual eligibility though, so that doesn't happen that often), but it's considered part of GMs' competence guessing before the start of the serason which winger could take a lot of FW and which C could do the opposite.

Not saying we should do the same, just underlining inferno is right imo.


Anyway, whatever is decided to address this topic, we need to have some kind of policy.

Mike said this is a non issue, but i disagree. When you have so many GMs still wondering about how this thing is supposed to work (in a consistent manner), you do have a problem.

Personally i don't know at which position some of my players will start the season and i have no definite guidelines to realize where they (imo) will play most of the season.. so i can't know how to adjust my roster accordingly.

We need precise standards on this issue as soon as possible.

Raptactics wroteCOLONAdams won 246 FOs last season guys and is listed as a RWer on every site.. like seriously?

Doesn't mean he's necessarily a center though. There are plenty of faceoff specialists out there, unless someone watch Pens games regularly to see otherwise maybe they had him taking key defensive draws or something then shift back to wing after play starts. The point is who knows.

I think we need to agree on a SINGLE site to use as a point of reference for everyone. We all know some sites are more reliable than others so when people start pulling contradicting facts it is going to be ridiculous. We need ONE site and thats it. If you find something on another site well tough shit; suck it up princess.

And Im not a fan at all of positional switches at X number of faceoffs; here's why. Were trying to make this site as NHL realistic as possible. I don't know if any of you have actually sat down and talked with an admin from fantasy sports sites to learn how the positional system works...but I have. For example people bitch all the time about how slow Yahoo is at positional updates. The fact is Yahoo bases the positional eligibility based on the game sheets submitted by the NHL teams EACH game. The guy can play center all he wants but if his team lists the player as a winger on their roster then hes a winger. Period. It may be annoying as hell but Yahoo wont update a position until the player's NHL team makes such an adjustment to their roster. Thats why it seems to take forever for Yahoo to make an update! If were trying to be as NHL realistic as possible then we should be having players play at the positions their NHL teams list them. No exceptions.

Probably wont be the most popular idea....but you can all go fuck yourselves lol...

MSP4LYFE wroteCOLONNick said the grey area is 400 FOW, so let's put a mandatory position switch on any winger(s) who hits 450 or more FOW (not attempts) during the season. It's not subjective, it's easy to police, and is a sure fire way to ensure centers don't get wing eligibility.

Furthermore, we need to eliminate the subjectivity involved in position switches, most sites contradict themselves, for that reason I think admins should only change a position IF a minimum of three major sources back up said GM's claims, BUT not if it goes against the rule mentioned above.


Thoughts?

If 3 good soarces back it up then thats prob what it is, so that will work with everybody im sure,450 is a good number to make a switch as well imo, i like it.

Habber wroteCOLON Thats why it seems to take forever for Yahoo to make an update!

that's why yahoo sucks and should NOT be used for reference.

Habber wroteCOLON If were trying to be as NHL realistic as possible then we should be having players play at the positions their NHL teams list them. No exceptions.

no dude, then we should have players play at the positions they DO play.

Mind you, i'm not saying i'm necessarily against your resolution of using only one site.. at least it would make things clear AND equal for everyone ( albeit we would have to settle the dual positions matter)..
but it must be a good source then, TSN or eliteprospects imo.

it should not be based on how many faceoffs won because what if a guy is not the best faceoff taker but takes over 700 faceoffs but only wins 400 of them that is still over 50% but then you are saying he would still be a winger, but then the guy who wins 500 of those 700 would be a center that isn't logical same amount of faceoffs taken but different positions? that isn't right, it should be based on how many faceoffs they take in total.

guys this argument is going in the wrong direction. neel has made the most sense so far. we can all agree on this: changing position eligibility in the middle of the season will lead to chaos. best solution is once a year adjustments.

now lets get a couple of things cleared up:

1. Do not put allegations on motivations. i.e. nick you suggested that scott, kareem and myself will protect our interests even if it means compromising the integrity of the stats. that is not true. all 3 of us are dedicated members of bbkl and want it to be run as perfectly as possible. the equivalent of this would be for me to say that the reason this is an issue for you is because scott, kareem and i will dominate the fow category and hence its a problem for you. but thats the wrong approach to take here because i know youre arguing this for the good of the league

2. We have had a system in place over the past year: if a GM has documented proof that Player X plays a certain position from a REPUTABLE website, that player has eligibility at that position. <---- this is not a flawed system. yesterday we got into a debate about whether oshie or backes should be a winger/center. and i have to say i agreed with you guys which is why i went out and made the marleau trade as i could foresee the positioning becoming a problem as ONE of them HAD to be a center. But there is a difference between that and players like Adams, Sharp, Giroux:

These players take a lot of faceoffs yes but not just one source but SEVERAL reputable sources list them as wingers/dual eligible. this isnt a coincidence. on a team like chicago, sharp plays wing a lot too. its not just there for no reason. he may take faceoffs a lot. but he PLAYS wing a lot too. <--- this is the definition of dual eligibility: a player who performs two different positions' duties regularly during the season. the same applies to giroux. he may take faceoffs, but he also plays wing a LOT.

this leads to one VERY IMPORTANT FACT: just because a player takes faceoffs does not mean he is not a winger.

you guys are trying to police this with faceoffs but that is not right at all.

3. This is very important. The value of a player in this league has been largely determined by what stats the produced. A player like Sharp has had increased value SIMPLY because he is dual eligible (and the owner of sharp is ENTITLED to such a return because of sharps dual eligibility which is legitimate).

The MINUTE you do this, where you say every player who takes more than 400 fow is a center, you DISTORT value in this league entirely. you DESTROY numerous trades made based on legitimate dual eligibility. notice i said legitimate - i fully understand that one of backes/oshie has to be a center. but sharp does not. sharp is a LEGITIMATE dual-eligible player. so is giroux. so is adams. so is zetterberg. so is marleau. i could keep going. there is NO WAY zetterberg is JUST a center. he plays wing on datsyuks line a LOT. but he gets more than 400 fow. to strip him of LW status would be a crime.

My suggestion is this: players who have ILLEGITIMATE dual-elibility should be stripped of their dual status every off season ONLY. Players like Sharp, Zetterberg, Marleau should NEVER lose their dual-eligibility because:

1) several reputable sources agree
2) they actually deserve it

Every off season we can go through players and either ADD dual-eligibilty or REMOVE it. However once the season starts, thats it. no more changes till the next season.

But i repeat, the ONLY WAY to gain or lose dual-eligibility is through legitimacy. legitimacy does not mean that if a player takes more than 400 fow he is a center lol. that is far too naive.

bryshook mentioned how because this is fantasy players who take fow are by definition centers in bbkl. no they are not. they play wing in the nhl. we give players status by how they play in the nhl. to take away LW eligibility from Zetterberg would COMPLETELY discredit the job Kyle has done in Boston. not only that it would be drastically unfair as Zetterberg deserves to be a LW if:

1) reputable sources agree
2) the players play the position for a good chunk of the season

that is legitimate. and that is all we should aspire to maintain.

I realize i may have repeated myself a couple of times but i hope i got through to you guys.

all im saying in my example is that if we are saying a winger is a center it cant be based on how good they are at faceoffs it has to be based on how often they take faceoffs, and shiv in a fantasy league sometimes you have to make these types of changes not because the nhl says the guy is a winger but to make scoring make sense im not saying we need to change anything but i understand the thinking of the argument

Shiv love it buddy. Spot on IMO.

Sharp, Marleau and Zetty would not lose dual eligibility, that's exactly my point of not just using a single-source for this issue, watching the games would show this, but once again, god-forbid we open our eyes.


I 100% understand what you guys are saying that some wingers do come in and take the odd draw... but that shows when you watch the game , when you check the line-mates (as someone is playing centre, a fact some here continue to ignore). I'll go back to Steve Ott for this, 100% he's a winger who comes in for draws, or even Sharp who is a 'vet' winger on a team that had injuries down the middle, he filled in (and can often be seen taking draws on his strong-side)

regarding your points:
1. -> I won't hesitate in calling someone out when I see an issue, you'll find I've had issues with this for FO issue some time, as well as the 19 skaters during last season, as well as a few other concerns.

2. REPUTABLE ? Not flawed? both of those are outright wrong... Take a look @ the blue positions, half the forwards are listed as Centres !!! suggesting we use this out-of-date listing is asinine!

this leads to one VERY IMPORTANT FACT: just because a player takes faceoffs does not mean he is not a winger.

Shiv how would you define a centre? where you lineup between whistles is 100% the most reliable & valid indicator of the position you play,this argument is beginning to sound like Kareem's when he had Park Shiv we've restricted # of centres (which is logical) I did not say ANYWHERE to remove dual eligibility, but if someone is a Centre he needs to be called as much, and people abusing the system should not be proud of dancing around this.

Anyways, these arguments really ruin the fun of the league for me, going to piece out on the topic for a little.

SuperMario wroteCOLON 2. We have had a system in place over the past year: if a GM has documented proof that Player X plays a certain position from a REPUTABLE website, that player has eligibility at that position. <---- this is not a flawed system.

dude, GMs are wondering how it actually works.. historic members are still battling after months over past season players positions.. we don't know exactly what "documented proof" means and which those "reputable websites" would be, and yahoo and nhl.com seem to be considered among them.. ... at the moment i would call it a mess more than a system, let alone flawless.
I am not even sure whether dual eligibility is admitted or not right now.

3. This is very important. The value of a player in this league has been largely determined by what stats the produced. A player like Sharp has had increased value SIMPLY because he is dual eligible (and the owner of sharp is ENTITLED to such a return because of sharps dual eligibility which is legitimate).
The MINUTE you do this, where you say every player who takes more than 400 fow is a center, you DISTORT value in this league entirely. you DESTROY numerous trades made based on legitimate dual eligibility.

wholeheartedly agree.

Every off season we can go through players and either ADD dual-eligibilty or REMOVE it. However once the season starts, thats it. no more changes till the next season.

Not sure we have enough time left before the start of this season though; but generally speaking, this could be a good thing for the game, as i mentioned before.. as long as we define the criteria to assign or strip dual eligibility.

kyuss wroteCOLON

Raptactics wroteCOLONThe only way to solve this issue to please everyone is eliminate FOWs as a catergory all together. We should add a catergory that all players score in such as takeaways in place of FOWs.

i'm absolutely against this.

First of all, we can't even consider this for this season, as people built their roster taking FW into consideration, not TA.
Furthermore,even in the future, in a league that covets realism so much, you can't take FW out of it .

I'm absolutely against people whinning about this shit.. lol

Kareems proposal made the most sense.

if i'm not mistaken, the main flaw of kareem's proposal is that a GM can theoretically find himself without enough wingers during the season if they take too many faceoffs.