BBKL GM Vote (Yes or No): Adding PPTOI from 2014/2015

[Robin Hood]

Nick has been putting up some great work in the Suter thread. I think next steps are going further into detail into what Nick has done. Then Nick can potentially make a detailed post about the stat breakdown he has done and it's implications so that all GMs are educated about the change.

[kyuss]

curious what you mean here. Both PP points and SH points are measure in special team points, they are valued the same. just curious if I read wrong or what you meant by it.

SPTPP stat winner is usually determined by PPP, not by SHP.
Put it this way: it's a stat regularly won by bbkl teams who have strong PP specialists, not by teams who have guys who record some odd SHP.

gotcha. That makes sense. I originally wanted SHP but feel it is just another GWG or SO. As in uncommon stat.

yeah i think using shtoi instead and only counting SPTP is perfect for that matter.

I think goalies are appropriately rated currently and we should avoid reducing that. I think after we took out saves we have the perfect mix right now. A goalie still can win a game or playoff series in real life, we need to protect that ability in bbkl. As of right now it is boarder line. With amazing goaltending you usually only go 3-0-1 in goaltending stats meaning to get the win for the week you still have to have to win at least 5 of the remaining 12 cats to go 8-7-1. I don't think we under value goalies, but we are closer to that then we are over valuing them imo.

agree.

[thom54]

Yes to a possible change from GWG

[CAM]

is this "discussion" to enact a CC discussion for a possible change in the 2014-15 season?

[KapG]

apparently Kyle.

[CAM]

Well, I hope alot of deep analysis goes into such a thing. Changing stats midway in such a deep league is quite a big deal as GM's have built teams around stat categories. I know i wouldnt have traded away D. Sedin if i thought PPTOI would be a new stat. Just my opinion. I know that any decision will be proper and for the betterment of the league. Lots of great heads in here to make right decision.

[KapG]

Well, I hope alot of deep analysis goes into such a thing. Changing stats midway in such a deep league is quite a big deal as GM's have built teams around stat categories. I know i wouldnt have traded away D. Sedin if i thought PPTOI would be a new stat. Just my opinion. I know that any decision will be proper and for the betterment of the league. Lots of great heads in here to make right decision.

Oh I 100% agree with everything you said.

This new potential stat cat also hurts me a TON since I just lost the best PPTOI player to the KHL. Also probably wouldn't have geared my defense in the last year and a bit to be a lot more well rounded periph wise with more of my scoring coming from my forwards.

This whole new idea really screws some people over because we have all constructed our teams to be as effective as they can be with the cats we currently have (well....most of us have done this). It's not like this is being introduced on year 2 or even 3. We are coming up on year 5 or 6 iirc right?

[Nick]

Changing a stat is bad news, I agre on that.

However adding a stat, could have a very minor impact. Because of the number of categories we have, each additional category has less of a value-changing effect. Although it does minimize the effectiveness of single or dual category heavy players. IE the PIMS + Hits guys who don't score or PK take a notable hit - the arguement being made, is that their cap matches the 2 category production properly, whereas the price for G/A/Pts/Stpts, at dman levels, doesn't match the produciton. I struggel with this a little, however the numbers do show that currently there is no dman in the top 20 of impact on our league scoring.

This might change with all 16 categories being included, but I do no believe so. If anything their advantage in shtoi from average would decrease (so would PKing-forwards in that case).

[KapG]

you should add sog for dmen as well since offensive dmen quite often put up north of 200 sog. a significant number IMO. I would guess adding that would skew the numbers a bit more in their favour.

[Nick]

is not recorded, so we cannot really consider it or examine the impact.

[shooker]

I disagree with adding a Cat. Goalies are borderline undervalued, adding a cat would simply make them undervalued imo. If you had a skater stat, you would have to add another one to goalies as well. 13 to 4 is just too wide of a gap

[KapG]

well that's not good is it?

those offensive dmen average a good amount more sog than the periph dmen that people have been complaining have too much value in our league compared to their purely offensive counterpart.

[shooker]

Oh I 100% agree with everything you said.

This new potential stat cat also hurts me a TON since I just lost the best PPTOI player to the KHL. Also probably wouldn't have geared my defense in the last year and a bit to be a lot more well rounded periph wise with more of my scoring coming from my forwards.

This whole new idea really screws some people over because we have all constructed our teams to be as effective as they can be with the cats we currently have (well....most of us have done this). It's not like this is being introduced on year 2 or even 3. We are coming up on year 5 or 6 iirc right?

That is a pretty narrow view imo. Reread you comments and see how many times you said I or my lol. I would have to change a lot, shiv would have to change more and facey would also have to change a ton yet we are discussing it to see if there is an actual benefit to the league. I honestly believe most teams will only need a couple changes if any to compete if any. you would have still taken 15 out of 16 into consideration. I personally already choose to ignore 2 stats as I don't believe you can be great at them all anyway. This wouldn't hurt you as much as you think but would allow for more ways to build.

Also the fact that all contenders have their back ends geared the same way and would all have to make changes isn't a red flag? It is for me. I don't want there to be only one way to build a team.

[KapG]

How's p90x coming along btw buddy? I'm almost on the recovery week for phase 2 . Cant wait till this shits done and I can get back to having more than one break day lol.


With regards to my above post I did use my and I a lot. Thats because I really only know the ins and outs of my own team. I'm quite confident that other GMs feel the same way though.

[Nick]

To be fair shook, I won more weeks* (not categories) then anyone last year, with a team geared totally towards scoring... dmen that score, centres that score & wingers that score.

I believe I was a contender, and did so without any perhiparies most of the year. Eventually lost in the playoffs (and not complianing) due to injuries. So it's not like it's not an acceptable build.

G, A, Pts, Stpts, SOG is still more categories than PIMS, Hits, BS & Shtoi. the random GWG & +/- need to both side with the perhipary team in order for FOW to even be needed. (Goalies are seperate from this build comparison). So the all scoring team is totally capable of winning each week against the balanced or grinder team. The balanced team will still beat the grinder team as well.

Adding dmen scoring, although it rises them in the individual player rankins, does do some havoc on the team build list... spending ALL you money on dmen *could* comfortably net you DmenPts, shtoi, & BS - than cheap wingers that hit and fight lands those 2 categories... likely allowing you to ignore your FOW and spend the rest of the cap/team value on goalies. DmenPTS, Shtoi, Hits, PIMS, BS vs G, A, Pts, SOG, Stpts is a wash... FOW vs goalies means the unpredictables would need to fall with the scorers to have a chance...


I agree it adds another build... But I think we've already seen JJ/Beau/Phanuef/Subban/Doughty as highly valued pieces. making them dominant another category might be too much. Or at least too big a change.

[Nick]

It continues to be worth discussing. But we have seen a lot of no's. Changing stats into a keeper league does need to be a very careful and talked about process.

Our changes after year one were very much planned, with an open heads up that the categories would be reviewed that first off-season.

[shooker]

WE DONT HAVE TO DO DEF POINTS!!!! 6 in the current top 50 is an issue for me.

[Nick]

Shoalzie do you have your spreadsheet of 2011-2012 data ?


I'm not stuck on def points, just saw too many flaws in PP-toi to continue with that one. Def Points is currently the best add IMO. But I do think lookin at impact w/o GWG & +/- was a much better indication of value, and it had lots of dmen in top 100.

[shooker]

To be fair shook, I won more weeks* (not categories) then anyone last year, with a team geared totally towards scoring... dmen that score, centres that score & wingers that score.

you have gone with that build since the beginning of bbkl. I am not trying to insult you but you have yet to win a playoff round. You did a 180 change this offseason and now have a periph based team, rather then an offensive one. I think you giving up on a build that all others had currently done is a sign that yes you can be competitive but you can't win. If it was strictly injuries, now I realize cap accounts for the trades just not the pieces targeted, why would you change builds?

for the record, Shiv, Shep and Steve had the same record as you. purely W/L record.

[shooker]

Shoalzie do you have your spreadsheet of 2011-2012 data ?


I'm not stuck on def points, just saw too many flaws in PP-toi to continue with that one. Def Points is currently the best add IMO. But I do think lookin at impact w/o GWG & +/- was a much better indication of value, and it had lots of dmen in top 100.

again +/- needs to be in those lists. It isn't predictable over 1 week but is fairly predictable over an 82 game season. which is the method we are currently measuring. taking those out does not accurately depict what we have going on as they currently count. Saying it is a much better indication is opinion based off results.

how many in the top 100? there was only 6 in the top 50...