Attention CC & League

[Robin Hood]

Nick brought it to my attention that I am being fined a 3rd Round Entry pick in 2010 for accidentally trading my 2nd round waiver twice. Now before I put my case forward I want to say a few things:

1) After I plead my case I would really appreciate it if the CC took what I say here to reevaluate their decisions regarding my case and other cases.
2) I will not dispute the decision the CC makes after reviewing what I say below.
3) I am arguing for not just my case, but similar cases and future cases.
4) I want to say before I continue I don't have a problem with anyone in this league. Everyone's great and does a great job. So don't take anything I say personally. I am arguing for the good of the league. If the majority agrees with me that's great. If I'm the minority, I'll gladly comply with the rules agreed upon by the majority.
5) There needs to be WAY more transparency while a certain situation is being evaluated. I was not aware of what was going on until Nick told me what the penalty was. This point needs to be emphasized further. If there is to be a form of Due Process in this league, anyone who is accused should have a right to defend himself and state his case. Otherwise this isn't a democracy. There is no trial by law. It's just what Big Brother decides (no offence intended CC) and I think there have been SEVERAL instances where people have asked for increased transparency.

Now back to my case.

1) The discrepancy is below. I accidentaly traded my 2nd waiver twice:

To Columbus: Mikael Samuelsson Marcel Goc 2010 5th Rounder (LAK) 2010 5th Rounder (PIT) 2010 2nd Round Dispersal Draft (PIT) To Pittsburgh: Jason Arnott Milan Hejduk To Pittsburgh: Lauri Korpikoski To Detroit: Eric Godard 2011 1st Round Dispersal Draft (PIT) 2010 2nd Round Dispersal Draft (PIT) pittsburgh 2nd round dispersal pick was traded twice...

2) Now I think that the fine of a 3rd Round entry in 2010 is very severe.

3) How many times have people posted a trade in the forum and Kareem has posted a reply saying "X GM cannot trade this pick because it belongs to Y GM. Please rework the trade guys." How is that ANY different from what has happened here? The only difference is that there Kareem caught it initially. Here there was a delay. Yet tonnes of those mistakes have gone unpunished. That's called not obeying precedent in identical circumstances.

4) If I was made aware of this, I myself would have messaged Bry and and I would've made sure I sent Bry something else that was fine with him (btw Bry you weren't online but I'm really sorry buddy. It was an honest mistake).

5) This type of mistake is DRASTICALLY different from mistakes that are made on purpose (i.e. I believe there was an instance of re-picking in a draft). No such case should be punished. The gms should simply be allowed to rework the minor discrepancy.

6) Given that me and bry could have EASILY worked this out, how is a 2nd round waiver equal to a 3rd round pick? Nick pointed out that people paid a 4th to move up a couple of spots in the waiver draft. I responded saying that when a gm wants a particular player he will pay MORE than is needed because of the player. but when bry and i made this trade (which was a while ago) the 2nd waiver didnt have CLOSE to as much value as a 3rd round entry. Top 3 rounds in the entry draft are where potentially SOLID NHL players are drafted. 2nd round of the waiver draft is where long shots are picked.

7) This penalty is FAR too severe for an honest mistake. And I believe far less severe penalties have been handed out for much BIGGER mistakes.

That's my case. If it doesnt change anything, I have no problem with paying the fine. But I hope the least it did was bring up the issues of Transparency and Due Process.

[bills09]

value wise 2nd waiver=about a 3rd or 4th round entry.

[Robin Hood]

value wise 2nd waiver=about a 3rd or 4th round entry.

4th i can possibly agree with but a 3rd is ridiculous to suggest is equal to a 2nd waiver. i think you are looking through the lens of the waiver draft just happened where people overpaid to get a certain player.

and this issue is just one of several that i stated.

[Nick]

well, its also very unfair to the GM who got nothing. They went out and got a piece, paid fair value, and then when it was there turn to pick (perhaps even their guy) WHAAMMMMYYY... someone else uses the pick as well...

don't double trade. it happens way to much in this league.


if you find out you did, go out and fix the situation. if your the GM who made the mistake, its up to you to square off with the other GM before it goes to the CC.


3rd is not a serve fine, its hardly a fine. (the pick is not just disappearing, it is transferred to the GM who got shafted).


Our fines have actually been consistently harsh.

PHX 1st was moved back (as well as NYI) for missing the GP regs by something like 67 games (out of 1100).
Frank loses the guy he selected + a 4th entry (this is an error involving a 3rd round waiver)
you did no use the pick, and just lose a 3rd entry (2nd round waiver double traded)
when Kareem arranged a trade for a player illegally (and owned up to it like a man), he lots the player (along with what he traded for the guy) and a pair for 3rds just days before the draft.... this could have been played off like a 'mistake' as well... however the fact is at another GM's expense, a mistake was made that's easy to avoid.

I had no where near this strong of an opinion in the voting process... i was only concerned with value.

but be warned, GM's who cannot be bothered to keep accurate up-to-date rosters even for themselves, or up-to-date trade threads (super easy copt and paste), it will not just be glossed over, a fair value will be found and assessed. We did not just use opinion, we used recent waiver draft picks that were traded in small deals in order to gauge their value.

if the fine is not paid by the end of the round of selection (ie before the start of the 4th 2010 in the case of a 3rd), the fine increases one draft location and is applied to the next year.

[Scott]

The problem here was the pick/selection was already chosen thus creating difficulty for everyone involved. It isn't Kareem's or anyone else's job to catch double traded picks.. it's the person who double traded it. We punished Mike a 3rd so we're punishing you a 3rd. If/when Kareem or someone else catches a double traded pick, consider yourself lucky because if that doesn't happen you will pay the consequences.. please pay attention to the assets you own..

[Robin Hood]

well, its also very unfair to the GM who got nothing. They went out and got a piece, paid fair value, and then when it was there turn to pick (perhaps even their guy) WHAAMMMMYYY... someone else uses the pick as well...

don't double trade. it happens way to much in this league.


if you find out you did, go out and fix the situation. if your the GM who made the mistake, its up to you to square off with the other GM before it goes to the CC.


3rd is not a serve fine, its hardly a fine. (the pick is not just disappearing, it is transferred to the GM who got shafted).


Our fines have actually been consistently harsh.

PHX 1st was moved back (as well as NYI) for missing the GP regs by something like 67 games (out of 1100).
Frank loses the guy he selected + a 4th entry (this is an error involving a 3rd round waiver)
you did no use the pick, and just lose a 3rd entry (2nd round waiver double traded)
when Kareem arranged a trade for a player illegally (and owned up to it like a man), he lots the player (along with what he traded for the guy) and a pair for 3rds just days before the draft.... this could have been played off like a 'mistake' as well... however the fact is at another GM's expense, a mistake was made that's easy to avoid.

I had no where near this strong of an opinion in the voting process... i was only concerned with value.

but be warned, GM's who cannot be bothered to keep accurate up-to-date rosters even for themselves, or up-to-date trade threads (super easy copt and paste), it will not just be glossed over, a fair value will be found and assessed. We did not just use opinion, we used recent waiver draft picks that were traded in small deals in order to gauge their value.

if the fine is not paid by the end of the round of selection (ie before the start of the 4th 2010 in the case of a 3rd), the fine increases one draft location and is applied to the next year.

nick i just said above i would compensate bry easily in talks.dont make it sound like im trying to get away with not paying a fine or trying to pull a fast one on bry. when this issue came up in cc you couldve just told me. i wouldve msged bry myself giving him compensation. the way these issues are handled is not the right way in my opinion.

[Shep]

I agree in the sense that the 3rd is pretty severe. A 4th or 5th should suffice.

However, I agree with the CC in the sense that the pick was used twice and that is a different situation then an entry draft pick traded twice 3 months before the draft. In which case, something else can easily be fixed. Although something can usually easily be fixed in this scenario, I do still agree it's different.

[Robin Hood]

PHX 1st was moved back (as well as NYI) for missing the GP regs by something like 67 games (out of 1100).
Frank loses the guy he selected + a 4th entry (this is an error involving a 3rd round waiver)

and btw nick, i said i was speaking for similar cases as well. i dont think frank should have been fined. as far as the phx 1st was concerend there was a vote to move the phx 1st back two spots in the draft. after long disputes, the penalty of 1 pick back in the draft was decided (an even lesser penalty). the CC needs to outline a proper hierarchy of penalties that fit the crime. For example:

1) Repicking after you've made - Gets X Penalty
2) Anything less severe - Should get Y Penalty that is less severe than X penalty.

What the CC has been doing is creating parallel hierarchies. A separate hierarchy for each type of infraction. I.e.

1) Missing the GP requirement has a different hierarchy depending on how many games you miss vs Double trading a pick.
2) This may seem to work in principle but it fails because Missing 100 GP below the requirement can somehow equal accidentally trading a pick that you've traded before that can be EASILY fixed vs. the GP issue which cannot be revered.

Penalties should fit the crime. Clear cut penalty hierarchies need to be established.

[Tony]

Rules are rules - sorry Shiv.

And when did this become a democracy?

[Nick]

bry came to us. we did not go looking for it.

[Robin Hood]

Rules are rules - sorry Shiv.

And when did this become a democracy?

i didn't realize democracy, transparency, due process/trial by law was a bad thing lol.

[Robin Hood]

bry came to us. we did not go looking for it.

lol wow thats fucked. he shouldve come to me. i have a clean record in this league. regardless i think when a certain gm approaches the CC the accused gm should be notified and the two parties should go to arbitration to work out the issue amongst themselves. if reconciliation is still not possible the CC should step in afterwards.

[Nick]

Rules are rules - sorry Shiv.

And when did this become a democracy?

i didn't realize democracy, transparency, due process/trial by law was a bad thing lol.

easy dude. we discussed the issue as a group of 6, vet GM's and weighed the VALUE of that pick @ the time of picking. 3rd rounder.


its your mistake, not his, you were actually warned about keeping track of your stuff because of the frequency of your trades (good thing) and tendency to re-trade pieces all over the places.

[bma]

Hey Guys, just wanted to chime in.

Before I begin, I'd just like to thank CC for being dilligent and responsive to the issue in a timely manner as well as Shiv for being relatively cooperative and understanding through this whole thing.

My intentions through this whole thing was to just get compensation for my missing pick. I had no intention of screwing Shiv or hoping that he would get penalized..I just wanted compensation which I feel I deserve. I think I told Scott before I went to Vegas that I would take an entry pick of equal value to a 2nd waiver pick (whatever CC decides) or the exact pick in the 2011 waiver draft.

[bma]

Shiv - I found out about this Thursday and I told Mash and Scott (both online at the time). I would've 100% talked to you too but you wern't online and I had a flight to vegas that same night.

[Robin Hood]

Simple question to ALL MEMBERS of CC

To You

2nd Waiver PIT 2010

To PIT

3rd Round Entry 2010


I am sure that there was a discussion about this case before you all voted. And certain members made certain points about why the penalty should be a 3rd. I ask ALL of you: WHO would do the above deal?

I was not given the opportunity to make a case for why the fine should be lower than a 3rd. There is NO DUE PROCESS. No one should ever receive a penalty without due process. That is how fairness is instituted into a legal system. I was not given the opportunity before a decision was made. That is not how this league should run. Poll all 30 GMs. They will all vote for more transparency and more due process in these decisions. They are not fair.

[Nick]

Shiv - I found out about this Thursday and I told Mash and Scott (both online at the time). I would've 100% talked to you too but you wern't online and I had a flight to vegas that same night.

thats what this is, compensation -> 3rd 2010.


shiv, there is also the matter that he DIDN"T get it. your sloppiness cost him his selection, right at the peak of its value.


anyways. its all a non-issue if you keep your shit in order

[Robin Hood]

Hey Guys, just wanted to chime in.

Before I begin, I'd just like to thank CC for being dilligent and responsive to the issue in a timely manner as well as Shiv for being relatively cooperative and understanding through this whole thing.

My intentions through this whole thing was to just get compensation for my missing pick. I had no intention of screwing Shiv or hoping that he would get penalized..I just wanted compensation which I feel I deserve. I think I told Scott before I went to Vegas that I would take an entry pick of equal value to a 2nd waiver pick (whatever CC decides) or the exact pick in the 2011 waiver draft.

Bry if this issue came to my attention I would've just sent you:

4th BOS 2010 + 5th WSH 2010.

[Robin Hood]

Shiv - I found out about this Thursday and I told Mash and Scott (both online at the time). I would've 100% talked to you too but you wern't online and I had a flight to vegas that same night.

thats what this is, compensation -> 3rd 2010.

No its not nick. Its pushing the limit on overpenalizing. I would send Bry a 4th + 5th in 2010. If the CC can consider this I would appreciate it.

[Nick]

thats two picks... adding multiple pieces skews the situation... is a 4th and 5th not often worth a 3rd? that seems to support our finding.