The Rocket Richard Race

[Shep]

It's obvious Crosby is the best player in the world.

Too bad he doesn't have somebody like Backstrom or Semin on his line 90% of the time or he may get 150pts!

[Robin Hood]

It's obvious Crosby is the best player in the world.

Too bad he doesn't have somebody like Backstrom or Semin on his line 90% of the time or he may get 150pts!

if Crosby had a guy like St. Louis on his line 90% of the time, he would've hit 150 points already.

[MSP4LYFE]

the same cannot be said of Crosby. The fact that you are arguing this statistical fact makes you look like a retard.

Shiv I am convinced you are just trying to piss me off, and I must admit, it's working.

Ovechkins assists have gone up, fact. Yet you are disputing the validity of this because OV admitted to passing more because of tight checking, but guess what asshole Crosby is shooting more because the team can't score, he himself admitted that. Yet you are disputing the validity of one, but not the other. That is why I dislike getting into arguments with you, there is so much bias, and you carefully select your arguments. You never paint the whole picture, just the portion that suits your argument. Anyways I'm off for real now.

sigh i could easily counter what you just said lol but yeah im tired of arguing.

p.s. getting under your skin is always the icing ont he cake. not the cake haha.

I'm sure you could counter all day, making a valid counter argument on the other hand...Not so certain.

[MSP4LYFE]

It's obvious Crosby is the best player in the world.

Too bad he doesn't have somebody like Backstrom or Semin on his line 90% of the time or he may get 150pts!

I don't Backstrom would help much, as Crosby isn't a get open and shoot type goal scorer. He drives the net hard, and pots him rebounds, it's more likely that Backstrom would play with Geno, but Semin-Crosby could effective, not 150 points effective, but certainly an increase odf 15-20 points. Similar to the boost OV got by playing with him.

[inferno31]

This debate will likely never end. I see it like this, and yes Kareem none of us have been in locker rooms with the guys, but we see their character on the ice, off the ice, and with the media. We know what coaches who coached them say about them, and analysts of the game who are paid to do this say as well.

There are two kinds of people in life: Those who enjoy winning, and those who hate losing. Crosby is the latter, and Ovechkin is the former.

Thats not a knock on either of their characters, they are their own individual players. But you can see that distinction in how they play, and how they approach the game.

[Robin Hood]

This debate will likely never end. I see it like this, and yes Kareem none of us have been in locker rooms with the guys, but we see their character on the ice, off the ice, and with the media. We know what coaches who coached them say about them, and analysts of the game who are paid to do this say as well.

There are two kinds of people in life: Those who enjoy winning, and those who hate losing. Crosby is the latter, and Ovechkin is the former.

Thats not a knock on either of their characters, they are their own individual players. But you can see that distinction in how they play, and how they approach the game.

oh I can't wait to see Kareem's response to this. As much as I think Crosby is better than Ov, I disagree with that bolded text FOR SURE.

IMO, at the end of their careers, Crosby will have the far more illustrious career. But in terms of comparing them in their primes it is fucking close as hell. Ov's season of when he put up 65 goals is the best statistical season since the lock out (yes even better than thornton and jagr imo). If Crosby/Stamkos can keep up this pace, it will surpass that total. I'd say Crosby is the better player now for sure. But its still close as fuck lol. I will say this: Ovechkin's raw talent has not hit its pinnacle and may never hit it not because he is less gifted than Crosby but simply because of the work being put in because again Ovechkin IMO is more or less the same]player he was 2 years ago - No one can really stop him even now and so we don't even notice this fact but its true. Crosby meanwhile has added layers to his game. Theres this quote i once read lol I went and Googled it right now for everyone's benefit. It's my argument for why Crosby > Ovechkin:

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

- Calvin Coolidge

[MSP4LYFE]

This debate will likely never end. I see it like this, and yes Kareem none of us have been in locker rooms with the guys, but we see their character on the ice, off the ice, and with the media. We know what coaches who coached them say about them, and analysts of the game who are paid to do this say as well.

There are two kinds of people in life: Those who enjoy winning, and those who hate losing. Crosby is the latter, and Ovechkin is the former.

Thats not a knock on either of their characters, they are their own individual players. But you can see that distinction in how they play, and how they approach the game.

I see what you are trying to say, but I absolutely hate that saying. My coach used to say it all the time, and it's the literal meaning always used to get to me, as it is very possible, and in fact common to hate losing, and at the same time love winning.

In regards to media potrayal, it literally means nothing. I can't overstate that enough, this is especially true of Sidney Crosby, the golden child of Canada, and the selling point for the NHL in North America. He has to be seen as perfect or near perfect, he embodies all that is good in hockey in North America, and has since he was 18, not unlike Tiger Woods. Doesn't mean he is that person, or isn't that person, it means nothing.

[Robin Hood]

This debate will likely never end. I see it like this, and yes Kareem none of us have been in locker rooms with the guys, but we see their character on the ice, off the ice, and with the media. We know what coaches who coached them say about them, and analysts of the game who are paid to do this say as well.

There are two kinds of people in life: Those who enjoy winning, and those who hate losing. Crosby is the latter, and Ovechkin is the former.

Thats not a knock on either of their characters, they are their own individual players. But you can see that distinction in how they play, and how they approach the game.

I see what you are trying to say, but I absolutely hate that saying. My coach used to say it all the time, and it's the literal meaning always used to get to me, as it is very possible, and in fact common to hate losing, and at the same time love winning.

In regards to media potrayal, it literally means nothing. I can't overstate that enough, this is especially true of Sidney Crosby, the golden child of Canada, and the selling point for the NHL in North America. He has to be seen as perfect or near perfect, he embodies all that is good in hockey in North America, and has since he was 18, not unlike Tiger Woods. Doesn't mean he is that person, or isn't that person, it means nothing.

for once I agree with you Kareem. Ovechkin has done everything he can to help the Caps win. That game 7 vs Pittsburgh aside, Ovechkin put up more points than Crosby in the series. He's not the reason the Caps tend to lose in the playoffs. Its guys like Mike Green and Alexander Semin who randomly disappear. Green however has taken his game to a new level this year imo. Caps best chance is to win this year, especially before Semin has to be signed.

[Robin Hood]

Btw, as far as international competition goes, I'd again love to side with Crosby but Canada has always had a team miles ahead of Russias at almost every level. Each of our 7 d men (Pronger, Nieds, Boyle Keith, Seabrook, Doughty, Weber) were better than the Russians top 2 dmen (Markov and Gonchar). And our bottom 6 crushed their bottom 6. So it's unfair to pass judgment on OV for that. One could easily cite the fact that Ovechkin scored the lone goal in the game that eliminated us from the 2006 Olympics. But Sweden was too fucking good that year - I'd go as far as to say if that team took on our 2010 Olympic Gold team, I'm not sure who would win. Ovechkin gets a bad rap for him not winning yet.

But that being said, Crosby imo is definitely the better player today.

[MSP4LYFE]

oh I can't wait to see Kareem's response to this. As much as I think Crosby is better than Ov, I disagree with that bolded text FOR SURE.

IMO, at the end of their careers, Crosby will have the far more illustrious career. But in terms of comparing them in their primes it is fucking close as hell. Ov's season of when he put up 65 goals is the best statistical season since the lock out (yes even better than thornton and jagr imo). If Crosby/Stamkos can keep up this pace, it will surpass that total. I'd say Crosby is the better player now for sure. But its still close as fuck lol. I will say this: Ovechkin's raw talent has not hit its pinnacle and may never hit it not because he is less gifted than Crosby but simply because of the work being put in because again Ovechkin IMO is more or less the same]player he was 2 years ago - No one can really stop him even now and so we don't even notice this fact but its true. Crosby meanwhile has added layers to his game. Theres this quote i once read lol I went and Googled it right now for everyone's benefit. It's my argument for why Crosby > Ovechkin:

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

- Calvin Coolidge

I couldn't agree more, hard work trumps talent or potential everyday of the week. As a professfor of mine once said, "one's potential is only as great as the work ethic that drives it." That being said, I find it very difficult, if not impossible to believe that a player as good as Ovechkin does not posess that level of drive, and in fact every credible documentary of him coming into the league supports that belief, but with struggles come doubt, and with that the need to explain them, often irrationally and with insufficent evidence, it's human nature. It happened a few years ago with Crosby, and it's happening again with OV. Like I asserted a few pages back, this has alot more to do with Crosby's sucess, than it does Crosby's character. Think about this objectively and rationally, if Crosby did everything the same, BUT his production was 5 points less than OV, or if their careers to date were identical but OV had a SC and Crosby didn't, would people still point to Crosby as the superior character and worker? Now obviously taking away the cup is an extreme, and to a point flawed example, but I trust you understand what I'm getting at here.

[MSP4LYFE]

Btw, as far as international competition goes, I'd again love to side with Crosby but Canada has always had a team miles ahead of Russias at almost every level. Each of our 7 d men (Pronger, Nieds, Boyle Keith, Seabrook, Doughty, Weber) were better than the Russians top 2 dmen (Markov and Gonchar). And our bottom 6 crushed their bottom 6. So it's unfair to pass judgment on OV for that. One could easily cite the fact that Ovechkin scored the lone goal in the game that eliminated us from the 2006 Olympics. But Sweden was too fucking good that year - I'd go as far as to say if that team took on our 2010 Olympic Gold team, I'm not sure who would win. Ovechkin gets a bad rap for him not winning yet.

But that being said, Crosby imo is definitely the better player today.

This is a fair argument...And one I might even be inclined to agree with, though I still feel OV is the better player. Just not right now, frankly Semin is better right now.

[Robin Hood]

oh I can't wait to see Kareem's response to this. As much as I think Crosby is better than Ov, I disagree with that bolded text FOR SURE.

IMO, at the end of their careers, Crosby will have the far more illustrious career. But in terms of comparing them in their primes it is fucking close as hell. Ov's season of when he put up 65 goals is the best statistical season since the lock out (yes even better than thornton and jagr imo). If Crosby/Stamkos can keep up this pace, it will surpass that total. I'd say Crosby is the better player now for sure. But its still close as fuck lol. I will say this: Ovechkin's raw talent has not hit its pinnacle and may never hit it not because he is less gifted than Crosby but simply because of the work being put in because again Ovechkin IMO is more or less the same]player he was 2 years ago - No one can really stop him even now and so we don't even notice this fact but its true. Crosby meanwhile has added layers to his game. Theres this quote i once read lol I went and Googled it right now for everyone's benefit. It's my argument for why Crosby > Ovechkin:

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

- Calvin Coolidge

I couldn't agree more, hard work trumps talent or potential everyday of the week. As a professfor of mine once said, "one's potential is only as great as the work ethic that drives it." That being said, I find it very difficult, if not impossible to believe that a player as good as Ovechkin does not posess that level of drive, and in fact every credible documentary of him coming into the league supports that belief, but with struggles come doubt, and with that the need to explain them, often irrationally and with insufficent evidence, it's human nature. It happened a few years ago with Crosby, and it's happening again with OV. Like I asserted a few pages back, this has alot more to do with Crosby's sucess, than it does Crosby's character. Think about this objectively and rationally, if Crosby did everything the same, BUT his production was 5 points less than OV, or if their careers to date were identical but OV had a SC and Crosby didn't, would people still point to Crosby as the superior character and worker? Now obviously taking away the cup is an extreme, and to a point flawed example, but I trust you understand what I'm getting at here.

But that's just it Kareem. Crosby has the Cup. Crosby has the Gold. Ovechkin doesn't and people are left to wonder why especially when the Capitals have been the best regular season team 3 years in a row.

It's not like the Capitals were a middle of the road playoff team. Player by player on every line , the Capitals have the best team in the NHL. Yet teams like Detroit and Pittsburgh (this year Detroit is miles ahead but anyways) are considered to have better odds to win the Cup.

Now granted, Ov's team lets him down a LOT MORE than Lidstrom's/Crosby's (Yes I said Lidstrom's not Datsyuk's ) but the question arises, How has Crosby's team made the final twice and Ovechkin's not even made the Conference finals. Is it because Crosby is a better leader? Is it because Crosby makes players around him better more than Ovechkin does? Obviously these questions can't be answered. But that does not mean they lack merit.

For a team to be the best team in the regular season and not win the cup is an anomaly. You guys remember in the early 2000s when people started calling the Wings chokers for losing to Edmonton and Calgary - that criticism was not wrong. 1st seeds shouldn't lose to 8th seeds. They just shouldnt. The 2000s have been plagued by this: Wings then Sharks then Caps.

You have to rememebr even YZERMAN - arguably the greatest captain ever, was given shit for much of his early career because he couldn't lead the Wings to a cup. The Caps and Ovechkin will face the same till they win. And they deserve to face that criticism. Because they haven't proven otherwise.

[Robin Hood]

lol I think I'm gonna write an article on this right now. Thanks kareem .

[MSP4LYFE]

I think there is merit to those arguments Shiv, I just don't draw that Crosby > Ovechkin because of them, not yet anyways.

lol I think I'm gonna write an article on this right now. Thanks kareem .

I'll be sure to read it.