David Backes Value Decreases...

[Robin Hood]

So Brooks Laich is dual eligible despite no resource saying he plays wing.
Dave Steckel is a strict center despite many resources saying he plays wing.

You guys are trying to make something that is very subjective (positions) into an objective.

LOL yeah this is the comical part abotu nicks argument.

Nick you arent making sense simply because of this:

1. There are 3 types of ice time: PP, ES, PK
2. A player can be a winger in one type of ice time but be a center in another. i.e. an ES winger can be an EXCELLENT penalty killer and hence has a LOT of FOT because hes out there on every penalty kill.
3. WINGERS WHO HAVE ALTERNATIVE ROLES ON DIFFERENT TYPES OF ICE TIME OR PLAYERS WHO SWITCH BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN PLAYING WING AND CENTER THROUGHOUT THE YEAR SHOULD HAVE ADDED VALUE IN THIS LEAGUE.

Zetterberg takes more than 400 fow but he should DEFINITELY BE wing eligible. by your argument he should be center. thats retarded.

4. I will say this again nick, you have a bad habit of being cynical and attaching the wrong motivation to people. its actually very insulting. when i agreed with you and kareem about backes/oshie i made a move to adjust. and to questions scotts/neels/kareems motives is ridiculous. they have only looked out for the best interests of the league.

[kyuss]

But a center is more than someone who just takes faceoffs, and its not a black and white line.

agree.

So Brooks Laich is dual eligible despite no resource saying he plays wing.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=2553

[MSP4LYFE]

and to questions scotts/neels/kareems motives is ridiculous. they have only looked out for the best interests of the league.

That's complete BS Shiv...As human beings we are all inherently self interested, whether we choose to admit that or not, or even acknowledge it conciously is an entirely different debate altogether.

[MSP4LYFE]

I had a big response written out and it wouldn't post but to summarize:

I hate when that happens...

[Scott]

Just ftr too, I only have 4 centres and probably Dubinsky moving to the wing in NYR so Adams as a winger or C really doesn't mean anything to me.. it's just stupid because he's listed EVERYWHERE as a RWer..

[Robin Hood]

and to questions scotts/neels/kareems motives is ridiculous. they have only looked out for the best interests of the league.

That's complete BS Shiv...As human beings we are all inherently self interested, whether we choose to admit that or not, or even acknowledge it conciously is an entirely different debate altogether.

why is there a need to be this cynical. everyones trying to come up with the best solution here. you ignored my entire post and focused on that point lol. lets talk about the issue is all im saying.

[inferno31]

Laich

Center
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Laich
http://capitals.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8469639
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/pl ... ooks-laich
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/p ... yerId=2180

Left Wing
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/p ... yerId=2180
TSN


Steckel
Left Wing
http://capitals.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8469483
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/p ... yerId=3171
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/pl ... ve-steckel

Center
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=2505
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/2934


So we've established at different times they may play different positions. But one is dual eligible, one is only center eligible? Shiv brought up the best point, this isn't only an EV league. Roles change game to game, and on PKs, PPs etc.

Faceoffs is not a good way to objectify what is a subjective category - a players position.

Also Regin likely gets dual eligibility as a winger so it doesn't impact me this season FTR.

[MSP4LYFE]

why is there a need to be this cynical. everyones trying to come up with the best solution here. you ignored my entire post and focused on that point lol. lets talk about the issue is all im saying.

Because at the end of the day it's what it boils down too, it's what it always boils down too. This issue is no different.

[Robin Hood]

this isn't only an EV league. Roles change game to game, and on PKs, PPs etc.

Faceoffs is not a good way to objectify what is a subjective category - a players position.

perfectly put neel. what facey is trying to do here is objectify a subjective category. the classification of a center or winger is SO subjective. to use only fow as the tool to determine objectivity is very naive. Even Strength, PK and PP ice time can all have different roles for different players.

[Nick]

1098 FOT .... #1 on the team ... damn that's a tough argument for not a centre... and he's 9th for FO%, not taking draws because he's winning them.

it's just stupid because he's listed EVERYWHERE as a RWer..

FUCK.. seriously?

Oshie is a centre EVERYWHERE
Steen is a centre EVERYWHERE
Mike Comrie is a centre EVERYWHERE
Michael Frolik is a centre EVERYWHERE (well most places)
Jiri Tlusty is a centre EVERYWHERE (well most places)
RJ Umberger is listed as a WInger in way way too many places

Player position is very poorly updated... lots of people have already pointed that out.



my fuck...

[Nick]

this isn't only an EV league. Roles change game to game, and on PKs, PPs etc.

Faceoffs is not a good way to objectify what is a subjective category - a players position.

perfectly put neel. what facey is trying to do here is objectify a subjective category. the classification of a center or winger is SO subjective. to use only fow as the tool to determine objectivity is very naive. Even Strength, PK and PP ice time can all have different roles for different players.

WE HAVE A LIMIT ON # of CENTRE because of the FOW category, this is the importance of the distinction for us. How are you missing this?

[kyuss]

So we've established at different times they may play different positions. But one is dual eligible, one is only center eligible? Shiv brought up the best point, this isn't only an EV league. Roles change game to game, and on PKs, PPs etc.

laich is also LW/C on http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=9518, but hey, i agree with your (and shiv's) point about PK..

[Robin Hood]

this isn't only an EV league. Roles change game to game, and on PKs, PPs etc.

Faceoffs is not a good way to objectify what is a subjective category - a players position.

perfectly put neel. what facey is trying to do here is objectify a subjective category. the classification of a center or winger is SO subjective. to use only fow as the tool to determine objectivity is very naive. Even Strength, PK and PP ice time can all have different roles for different players.

WE HAVE A LIMIT ON # of CENTRE because of the FOW category, this is the importance of the distinction for us. How are you missing this?

Nick I'm not missing it. I'm not saying let every center play wing LOL. I'm saying the 5-10 guys in the league who are WINGERS but take FO have EVERY RIGHT to be dual eligible. in fact those 5-10 guys' LEGITIMATE dual eligibility (notice i say legitimate for guys like Zetterberg) - their dual eligibility makes them MORE VALUABLE just like Dustin Brown is MORE VALUABLE for putting up 200+ hits and 50+ points. Its strategic to own guys who are dual eligible. AGAIN i say right now that BOTH backes and oshie cant be wingers. i concede that point. BUT ZETTERBERG IS WINGER-ELIGIBLE. I DONT CARE HOW MANY FACEOFFS HE TAKES.

[Nick]

so lets remove positional restrictions.


1098 FOT, #1 on a strong face-off team... I dunno Shiv.. wtf makes a centre to you? 2-way defensive play? being a responsible player? taking faceoffs? your personal opinion of what a player is ?


For our purpose a player who is pre-dominantly lining up in the middle should be considered a centre.

[Robin Hood]

so lets remove positional restrictions.


1098 FOT, #1 on a strong face-off team... I dunno Shiv.. wtf makes a centre to you? 2-way defensive play? taking faceoffs? your personal opinion of what a player is ?

nick i dont disagree with your argument about FOT in ALMOST every case. the problem is there is a group of about 10-15 players who would become a center under your criteria when they are not JUST centers. We can talk about zetterbergs faceoffs taken all we want, but i dare you to find me ANYONE who can deny that the zetterberg-datsyuk-franzen line isnt for real. it may not always be on the ice, but its on the ice for the PP, its on the ice on pressure situations i.e. when the wings are down. its a REAL LINE that gets SIGNIFICANT ice time. your FOT criteria works for blatant centers like Staal, Getzlaf. but it fails to work for centers whose role is blurred between Center and Wing. No one can deny that Zetterberg plays wing for a significant chunk of the year. NO ONE. and if your criteria would make him a center, that is a flawed system.

[kyuss]

1098 FOT .... #1 on the team ... damn that's a tough argument for not a centre... and he's 9th for FO%, not taking draws because he's winning them.

it's just stupid because he's listed EVERYWHERE as a RWer..

FUCK.. seriously?

Oshie is a centre EVERYWHERE
Steen is a centre EVERYWHERE

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=3061
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=5331
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=460
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=9209

but anyway, the main thing for me should be agreed on a system.. which we would be able to implement to clarify things for GMs instead of creating arguments.

The system in place last season seems to leave too much room for arguments, as ongoing and past discussions suggest..

But i guess the same system, once specifics are better clarified and properly chosen, could still work fairly well.

[Nick]

huh?
1.8%

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_ ... ns&sent=go

[Shep]

lol wtf is going on in this thread?

[Scott]

huh?

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_ ... ns&sent=go

This just further proves his dual eligibility lol he's almost always out there with another C, almost.

[Robin Hood]

nick i dont disagree with your argument about FOT in ALMOST every case. the problem is there is a group of about 10-15 players who would become a center under your criteria when they are not JUST centers. We can talk about zetterbergs faceoffs taken all we want, but i dare you to find me ANYONE who can deny that the zetterberg-datsyuk-franzen line isnt for real. it may not always be on the ice, but its on the ice for the PP, its on the ice on pressure situations i.e. when the wings are down. its a REAL LINE that gets SIGNIFICANT ice time. your FOT criteria works for blatant centers like Staal, Getzlaf. but it fails to work for centers whose role is blurred between Center and Wing. No one can deny that Zetterberg plays wing for a significant chunk of the year. NO ONE. and if your criteria would make him a center, that is a flawed system.

this.

lol i just wanted to accentuate my post.