PRE-SEASON game talk

[armandtanzarian]

very nice...

[Nick]

ye, Dion, Schenn, Hanson all took some hard hits that game... TBH I cannot remember when DP went into (aka got smashed) the end boards like that.

[MSP4LYFE]

Dion Phaneuf telling Jamie McGinn to stay down after a bone crushing hit.

[MSP4LYFE]

Dion Phaneuf taking out the trash.

[armandtanzarian]

Any time anyone posts a photo of Dion Phaneuf on the wrong end of a hit, you post three photos of a Dion making hits. Almost like you need to make a statement and stick up for him. You've become too predictable Kareem. Almost as funny as this guy that called into the radio today saying Colby Armstrong would score 35 goals and Dion Phaneuf would get 65 points. buhaaha

[MSP4LYFE]

Any time anyone posts a photo of Dion Phaneuf on the wrong end of a hit, you post three photos of a Dion making hits. Almost like you need to make a statement and stick up for him. You've become too predictable Kareem. Almost as funny as this guy that called into the radio today saying Colby Armstrong would score 35 goals and Dion Phaneuf would get 65 points. buhaaha

Of course I have to make a statement...I'm a Leafs fan, you would do the same thing as a Bruins fan (ultimately failing, but attempting it nonetheless), it's not predictable, it's principle, and even being predictable I'm able to get under your skin, so either I'm not all that predictable, or you are easily frustrated by repitition. In which case this response (being predictable and all) must really piss you off.

Secondly, Phaneuf getting 65 points is not unreasonable...He scored 60 as a 21 year old...This season he will be playing the full 5 minutes beside Tomas Kaberle, Kris Versteeg, Phil Kessel and Tyler Bozak. That should lead to alot of points.

And finally, your first and second point have absolutely nothing in common, in other words, your argument doesn't make sense. Predictable...

[Nick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_xZYYLtqA[/youtube]


Chara gets OWNED.

[armandtanzarian]

You don't have to make a statement. It was a cool photo. It could be a Bruin and i would say the same thing. He is a hockey player on a hockey team. He gives hits and gets hits. It happens. And no, I would not do that as a Bruins fan because i understand the aforementioned statement. And I must correct you, nothing anyone on this form can type will get under my skin. Really. I might get into a passionate debate on a topic but i will not be irritated by words from an unknown character. And really, what is the point of me trying to argue a point about the Leafs on a Leafs board? I have learned my lesson. I will fluff your Leaf ego's and everyone will be happy. Dion Phaneuf with 65 points Norris and Kessel gets the Rocket. I know the so called experts don't know that much, but when you have 99% of them arguing between whether the Leafs will finish 29th or 25th i think we can roll with a theme here. But i digress.

You are on some serious drugs if you think Phaneuf is going to get 65 points with that offense. Even if the Kessel line was on the ice for the entire game, he wouldn't get it. do you realize the statement you are making. 2 Players last year had above 65 points. Duncan Keith and Mike Green. Look who was in front of them. so Pronger, Lidstrom, Gonchar with all the depth in talent in front of them did not get 60 points. But Phaneuf is now going to coming off of a 29th overall finish and the big offseason signings of Kris Versteeg and Colby Armstrong. Enough said...think about that one. The guy will be in the news for snorting powder before the end of the year and Ron Wilson will be fired. You know I am more accurate in that statement than you are with the 65 point one...lol I know you are passionate but usually you are realistic in your evaluations and judgments. Your blue goggles have severely impacted your view on reality. Otherwise, you have proven to have an excellent understanding of the game and a sense of talent.

[MSP4LYFE]

You don't have to make a statement. It was a cool photo. It could be a Bruin and i would say the same thing. He is a hockey player on a hockey team. He gives hits and gets hits. It happens. And no, I would not do that as a Bruins fan because i understand the aforementioned statement. And I must correct you, nothing anyone on this form can type will get under my skin. Really. I might get into a passionate debate on a topic but i will not be irritated by words from an unknown character. And really, what is the point of me trying to argue a point about the Leafs on a Leafs board? I have learned my lesson. I will fluff your Leaf ego's and everyone will be happy. Dion Phaneuf with 65 points Norris and Kessel gets the Rocket. I know the so called experts don't know that much, but when you have 99% of them arguing between whether the Leafs will finish 29th or 25th i think we can roll with a theme here. But i digress.

You are on some serious drugs if you think Phaneuf is going to get 65 points with that offense. Even if the Kessel line was on the ice for the entire game, he wouldn't get it. do you realize the statement you are making. 2 Players last year had above 65 points. Duncan Keith and Mike Green. Look who was in front of them. so Pronger, Lidstrom, Gonchar with all the depth in talent in front of them did not get 60 points. But Phaneuf is now going to coming off of a 29th overall finish and the big offseason signings of Kris Versteeg and Colby Armstrong. Enough said...think about that one. The guy will be in the news for snorting powder before the end of the year and Ron Wilson will be fired. You know I am more accurate in that statement than you are with the 65 point one...lol I know you are passionate but usually you are realistic in your evaluations and judgments. Your blue goggles have severely impacted your view on reality. Otherwise, you have proven to have an excellent understanding of the game and a sense of talent.

Don't lump me into the group of homerish leaf fans...I've been one of the few that has been skeptical of this team since the lockout, and one of the few who predicted a bottom 10 finish last season when most were calling for the playoffs. When I make a positive comment regarding a Leaf, it is often warranted.

In the case of Dion Phaneuf, he most certainly can hit 65, in his third season (07-08) he hit 60 on a very medicore Flames offense, aside from Jerome Iginla, that offense was mediocre, similar to the Leafs offense today.

Jarome Iginla - 98 points
Kristian Huselius - 66
Daymond Langkow - 65
Dion Phaneuf - 60
Alex Tanguay - 58

287 (excluding Phaneuf)

After those five the numbers drop off considerably. I don't expect Kessel to score 98, but 70-80 seems reasonable given a healthy season, Kaberle has scored at 50 or higher consistently throughout the last 10 seasons so 50 or more is a lock, Grabo scored at a 50 point pace as a rookie, and a 45 point pace last season as a sophomore, so he too seems destined to hit 50 or more with the improved overall lineup. Tyler Bozak scored at a 60 point pace as a rookie last season, and has impressed early in pre-season, not to mention he will be centering the teams top line, 50 or more is possible. Ditto with Versteeg who scored 53 as a rook and 44 again last season, on a secondary unit, no less. Nikolai Kulemin is the wild card, he has shown major improvements since the ASB last season, but it remains uncertain how much he has improved, anywhere from 30-60 is possible.

Phil Kessel - 70/80
Tomas Kaberle - 50/60
Tyler Bozak 50/60
Kris Versteeg 50/60
Nikolai Kulemin 30/60

250/320 (low end v. top end)

I calculated the low end and top end projections to forecast the different possibilities for this season, often times the results are never on one end of the extreme, but rather somewhere in the middle, I anticipate the same to hold true in this case.

With that in consideration, as well as the fact that Dion is 4 years older, and thus more mature and refined, it is not unreasonable to conclude that Dion Phaneuf score 5 more points over a full season, assuming (as stated above) the Leafs players are able to modestly improve on seasons past, which is not an unreasonable statement.

Unrelated but also humorous is your comparison to Green and Keith, you do realize defenceman have put up great numbers irrespective of the team around them correct? I'm not saying a defenceman can score a ton with a shit team, but history has proven you don't need a great supporting case to do it either (*cough Mark Streit *cough).

[armandtanzarian]

Hey, I can respect your research and numbers. Don't get me wrong, I love Phaneuf and his style, but i just think it is a bit unreasonable to think he will achieve that in Toronto with the roster they have. One main reason being the depth they have on Defense. And using your comparisons that would mean that Kaberle would need to have a significant drop. When was the last time two defenseman from the same team scored 50 points or greater in the same season? And I was not comparing Phaneuf to Green or Keith, I was using their points totals only. All your numbers are on the optimistic side with a bit of hope involved. I can give you a whole bunch of numbers for the Bruins too but i have learned that the likelihood of attaining such numbers is unrealistic and that is with a stacked team. The Kessel line does have potential to put up some great numbers but that's where it ends for me. If the numbers you predict for those players come true, than I guess we will be seeing each other in the playoffs because the Leafs will be one of the highest scoring teams in the league and a finish of 4 in the East. If that happens, trust me, I will eat one big ass crow!

[MSP4LYFE]

Hey, I can respect your research and numbers. Don't get me wrong, I love Phaneuf and his style, but i just think it is a bit unreasonable to think he will achieve that in Toronto with the roster they have. One main reason being the depth they have on Defense. And using your comparisons that would mean that Kaberle would need to have a significant drop. When was the last time two defenseman from the same team scored 50 points or greater in the same season? And I was not comparing Phaneuf to Green or Keith, I was using their points totals only. All your numbers are on the optimistic side with a bit of hope involved. I can give you a whole bunch of numbers for the Bruins too but i have learned that the likelihood of attaining such numbers is unrealistic and that is with a stacked team. The Kessel line does have potential to put up some great numbers but that's where it ends for me. If the numbers you predict for those players come true, than I guess we will be seeing each other in the playoffs because the Leafs will be one of the highest scoring teams in the league and a finish of 4 in the East. If that happens, trust me, I will eat one big ass crow!

Defenceman score 50 + on the same team alot more often than you think...Markov and Streit did it a few seasons ago, Kaberle and McCabe did it post lockout, Redden and Chara almost did it post lockout, Souray and Markov, Wideman and Chara last year, Lidstrom and Rafalski multiple times since the lockout, ditto with Niedermayer and Pronger, and these are just off the top of my head.

I think you are severely underestimating the quality of the Leafs offense, we lack a proven second line, but the first line talent and production is there on lines 1, 3, and 4. The projections I posted were actually on the low end, I tried to stay close to what is realistic and thus posted totals that have either been achieved (in the case of youngsters) or average numbers (in the case of veterans), the one exception is Nikolai Kulemin who I think will breakout this season.

Lastly, I never said that you compared Phaneuf to Green or Keith, the point was that defenceman put up big numbers on mediocre to bad teams all the time...Zdeno Chara put up back to back 40+ seasons on a relatively weak Boston Bruins team (post lockout).

[armandtanzarian]

I think the top line of the Leafs will be amazing offensively. no doubt. The 2nd line will be good but they wont touch the majority of second lines in the league. My main reasons for not thinking Phaneuf will do that is the depth on D and lack of extra scoring up front along with another proven offensive guy like Kaberle. And you are right in the pairings you mentioned. I guess i can understand when you mentioned Chara and Wideman as there was 7 20 goal scorers. The offense was spread out whereas the D was almost always on the ice. so yes, it is possible, but imo, not very likely. Note, I am not one who thinks the Leafs will be bottom 5 either. I still stand that they will fight for that 8th spot, that is of course without any major injuries. One of my biggest concerns If i were a Leaf fan would be Wilson. He has a history of ruining players. I hate how they air there dirty laundry about players to the media. Was there any need of the Kadri stuff by Burke and Wilson? No other team does that shit. Well maybe the Habs media...?? I just dont agree with it and I think Wilson will be gone before seasons end. Sooner if the Leafs go on a slide liek they did to start the year last season. Not likely though...

[MSP4LYFE]

I think the top line of the Leafs will be amazing offensively. no doubt. The 2nd line will be good but they wont touch the majority of second lines in the league. My main reasons for not thinking Phaneuf will do that is the depth on D and lack of extra scoring up front along with another proven offensive guy like Kaberle. And you are right in the pairings you mentioned. I guess i can understand when you mentioned Chara and Wideman as there was 7 20 goal scorers. The offense was spread out whereas the D was almost always on the ice. so yes, it is possible, but imo, not very likely. Note, I am not one who thinks the Leafs will be bottom 5 either. I still stand that they will fight for that 8th spot, that is of course without any major injuries. One of my biggest concerns If i were a Leaf fan would be Wilson. He has a history of ruining players. I hate how they air there dirty laundry about players to the media. Was there any need of the Kadri stuff by Burke and Wilson? No other team does that shit. Well maybe the Habs media...?? I just dont agree with it and I think Wilson will be gone before seasons end. Sooner if the Leafs go on a slide liek they did to start the year last season. Not likely though...

To clarify, when you say Leafs depth on defence, are you reffering to it in a positive sense, as in there are so many defenceman who care score, therefore Phaneuf will get less ice time, or the defensive depth sucks, therefore it will be harder for Phaneuf to pinch without worrying about giving up a GA?

As for the offense, yeah the second line doesn't look sexy on paper, but few do. I don't worry that they can score, my worry is how consistent they can score. An inconistent second line will lead to increased defensive pressure on the first line, which is never a good thing. As it stands, I think the Leafs are looking at somewhere between 8-12 in the East, how high or low we finish will be determined by health and goaltending.

The Kadri thing is overblown btw, Burke explained that they do not want to shelter their players, this is Toronto, and if they can't handle the scrutiny this isn't the place for them. Furthermore, nothing said by Burke was new, him and RW had a closed door meeting in which they expressed all of the afformentioned comments to him in private. This was not a case of the coach back stabbing a player, and frankly the comments were not bad at all. Kadri needs to step up, and stop talking about being better, and actually be better. If that ruins him, than I dare say he was never that good to begin with.

[Nick]

I think Burke is being specific to Kadri... as Kadri is saying the correct things back at them/the media... He's an over-come adversary situation

[armandtanzarian]

I think the top line of the Leafs will be amazing offensively. no doubt. The 2nd line will be good but they wont touch the majority of second lines in the league. My main reasons for not thinking Phaneuf will do that is the depth on D and lack of extra scoring up front along with another proven offensive guy like Kaberle. And you are right in the pairings you mentioned. I guess i can understand when you mentioned Chara and Wideman as there was 7 20 goal scorers. The offense was spread out whereas the D was almost always on the ice. so yes, it is possible, but imo, not very likely. Note, I am not one who thinks the Leafs will be bottom 5 either. I still stand that they will fight for that 8th spot, that is of course without any major injuries. One of my biggest concerns If i were a Leaf fan would be Wilson. He has a history of ruining players. I hate how they air there dirty laundry about players to the media. Was there any need of the Kadri stuff by Burke and Wilson? No other team does that shit. Well maybe the Habs media...?? I just dont agree with it and I think Wilson will be gone before seasons end. Sooner if the Leafs go on a slide liek they did to start the year last season. Not likely though...

To clarify, when you say Leafs depth on defence, are you reffering to it in a positive sense, as in there are so many defenceman who care score, therefore Phaneuf will get less ice time, or the defensive depth sucks, therefore it will be harder for Phaneuf to pinch without worrying about giving up a GA?

As for the offense, yeah the second line doesn't look sexy on paper, but few do. I don't worry that they can score, my worry is how consistent they can score. An inconistent second line will lead to increased defensive pressure on the first line, which is never a good thing. As it stands, I think the Leafs are looking at somewhere between 8-12 in the East, how high or low we finish will be determined by health and goaltending.

The Kadri thing is overblown btw, Burke explained that they do not want to shelter their players, this is Toronto, and if they can't handle the scrutiny this isn't the place for them. Furthermore, nothing said by Burke was new, him and RW had a closed door meeting in which they expressed all of the afformentioned comments to him in private. This was not a case of the coach back stabbing a player, and frankly the comments were not bad at all. Kadri needs to step up, and stop talking about being better, and actually be better. If that ruins him, than I dare say he was never that good to begin with.

Yes, In a positive way as in the other pairs will get more ice time and the coach will not have any problems putting out any pair in any situation. Obviously Dion and Kabs are the main men but the other D are quite solid and will take away some ice time. The Leafs defense is the strongest part of the team. When you refer to shittier teams with a top D getting a lot of points i can't compare that to the Leafs because of there proven depth in the back end. That is one of my main reasons for feeling to points may be spread out a bit more therefore not giving Dion the chance to attain such a high level of totals.

[Nick]

I hear what your saying Kyle, however the majority of a d-man's points typically come while on the power-play. For Dion to break 45 points suggests that we'll have a reasonable PP, and under that same assumption I'd say Kaberle breaks 45 (note: both have hit these totals before).


ps- on my lightning Dion-Shea would be a deadly power play, it would 100% require the forwards to stay high, allowing for insanely easy down-low plays...

[armandtanzarian]

Arniel and Spooner sent back to Minors for Bruins. Final three guys gunning for a position are Colborne, Caron and Hamill. Julien said tomorrow nights roster would be identical to opening night so we can find out more from that. If its Caron, you will see Wheeler at center (dual eligibility?) Otherwise it would be Hamill at center and if Hamill does not make it i can see him being moved. Not sure if Colborne has a chance this year tbh. I really want Caron to be on that third line with Wheeler...One guy i havent heard much about is Marchand. Not sure of his status.

[MSP4LYFE]

Yes, In a positive way as in the other pairs will get more ice time and the coach will not have any problems putting out any pair in any situation. Obviously Dion and Kabs are the main men but the other D are quite solid and will take away some ice time. The Leafs defense is the strongest part of the team. When you refer to shittier teams with a top D getting a lot of points i can't compare that to the Leafs because of there proven depth in the back end. That is one of my main reasons for feeling to points may be spread out a bit more therefore not giving Dion the chance to attain such a high level of totals.

I don't think it's going to be a huge issue, RW tends to rely one or two guys on D, and really work them. Dion Phaneuf and Francois Beauchemin were those guys last season, averaging close to 27 minutes, and as high as 30 minutes on some nights. I don't think ice time or opportunities will be a huge issue for Phaneuf with that in mind.

[armandtanzarian]

Here is a thread pertaining to exactly what we were discussing with regards to Phanuef. Some good points raised.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=823824

[armandtanzarian]

Bruins latest round of cuts in case anyone has any of these players.

Colborne
Hamill
Kampfer
Lovecchio
Reich
Smith

That leaves Caron vs Marchand for the final forward spot as McGratton is a write in for the 13th forward. And it leaves McQuaid vs Bartkowski on D.