PRE-SEASON game talk

[MSP4LYFE]

Here is a thread pertaining to exactly what we were discussing with regards to Phanuef. Some good points raised.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=823824

I can't tell you how little I respect the opinons the people on HF, most are biased and uneducated.

[shooker]

I hear what your saying Kyle, however the majority of a d-man's points typically come while on the power-play. For Dion to break 45 points suggests that we'll have a reasonable PP, and under that same assumption I'd say Kaberle breaks 45 (note: both have hit these totals before).


ps- on my lightning Dion-Shea would be a deadly power play, it would 100% require the forwards to stay high, allowing for insanely easy down-low plays...

you guys had the worst power play in the league last year fuctioning at just 14%. I think if Wilson gets fired your team may improve on that otherwise expect a terrible powerplay yet again and Dion falling way short of that 65 plateau.

[shooker]

Here is a thread pertaining to exactly what we were discussing with regards to Phanuef. Some good points raised.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=823824

I can't tell you how little I respect the opinons the people on HF, most are biased and uneducated.

I couldn't agree more, I think HF boards are a joke. If bored and I want a laugh I go into the rumours area of the forums and its always a good time. Sidney Crosby to Calgary in some sort of Iggy deal and such.....people say what they wish was true on there and use very little factual evidence. I don't even read it anymore.

[MSP4LYFE]

I hear what your saying Kyle, however the majority of a d-man's points typically come while on the power-play. For Dion to break 45 points suggests that we'll have a reasonable PP, and under that same assumption I'd say Kaberle breaks 45 (note: both have hit these totals before).


ps- on my lightning Dion-Shea would be a deadly power play, it would 100% require the forwards to stay high, allowing for insanely easy down-low plays...

you guys had the worst power play in the league last year fuctioning at just 14%. I think if Wilson gets fired your team may improve on that otherwise expect a terrible powerplay yet again and Dion falling way short of that 65 plateau.

Our pp sucked because we lacked the personnel, Dion and Kaberle are fine, but we had no down low play due to a lack of forwards (outside Kessel) this eliminated a down low play, as a result the opposing pk'ers would take away the space of our point men, and we had nothing. The only other option was a pass to Kessel, and cycle shot. As you can imagine, that play was incredibly ineffective, and we sucked as a result of it. Early this preseason we have Bozak and Versteeg working the down low play, their puck possesstion style, has allowed us to work the half walls, thread the needle through the crease, and bide time for kessel to get open for the wrister, this combined with our point distrubution has opened up space for the entire pp and made it far more unpredictable. The result? Clear shooting lanes for Phaneuf, open left circle for Kessel, and the hashmarks to set up the cross crease play.

All in all I expect a vastly improved pp this season.

[Nick]

Ye, last year our power play sucked... its also a huge exception in his coaching career and on the leafs %.

08-09 leafs were 16th
07-08 leafs were 15th * SJS was 10th w/#1PK
06-07 leafs were 15th * SJS was #2 w/#14PK
05-06 leafs were 2nd * SJS was 13th

pre-lockout both were top 15
99-00 his caps were #6
98-99 his caps were #19
97-98 his caps were #4


RW has a history of being a good special teams coach, and we have some players that should combine for a reasonable power-play.

[shooker]

Ye, last year our power play sucked... its also a huge exception in his coaching career and on the leafs %.

08-09 leafs were 16th
07-08 leafs were 15th * SJS was 10th w/#1PK
06-07 leafs were 15th * SJS was #2 w/#14PK
05-06 leafs were 2nd * SJS was 13th

pre-lockout both were top 15
99-00 his caps were #6
98-99 his caps were #19
97-98 his caps were #4


RW has a history of being a good special teams coach, and we have some players that should combine for a reasonable power-play.

I was waiting for these stats. You are also forgetting one thing here. He had a stacked team in sjs and Jagr in washington those are huge advantages. Yes he did have the 16th best powerplay in the league in 08-09 but they also had the 30th overal penalty killing in the league as did they this past season. Also the 05-06 season you failed to mention the pk it was 23rd overal, you can't leave some stats out to try to aid you argument. Also note that in 08-09 after wilson SJS was 3rd pp/5th pk and last year 4th pp/5th pk and that pp is even with a horrible second half point production from joe thornton.

Since hiring ron wilson no team has had a worse penalty kill in all of hockey than the leafs. Power play can be argued, as Kareem did, as a personal deal because you need people to put it in the net. So that stat may improve but I doubt a whole lot as they had Dion since January and I doubt that versteeg will turn things around single handedly. However you have had one of the best pp QB's in the league for the past few years and it should reflect that.

You can also argue personal for pk as well and if you current leafs past years of their careers toronto has some great pk'ers especially on the back end, yet they have been 30th the last two years. How come? I see wilson as a horrid special teams guy, yes his systems may have worked when he had exceptional players but a good coach can adapt and find a way to make the players he has more effective. He has not done so which imo makes him a bad special teams coach.

Mark my words when wilson is fired that teams power play and penalty kill stats will improve drastically.

O/T I really dont understand why the leafs numbers during wilson's reigh in SJS were relevant? Toronto is a totally different team compared to then.

[Nick]

not in his early years @ SJS... before Jumbo


also... Wilson coached Jagr for a single season for the caps... none of the years i mentioned.

[shooker]

not in his early years @ SJS... before Jumbo


also... Wilson coached Jagr for a single season for the caps... none of the years i mentioned.

Jumbo came over and had his career year in 05-06 in sjs played 58 games there...you are right though I had jagrs years messed up there. He did still have qb Gonchar, Oats down low and the sniper peter bondra lol.

[MSP4LYFE]

Ye, last year our power play sucked... its also a huge exception in his coaching career and on the leafs %.

08-09 leafs were 16th
07-08 leafs were 15th * SJS was 10th w/#1PK
06-07 leafs were 15th * SJS was #2 w/#14PK
05-06 leafs were 2nd * SJS was 13th

pre-lockout both were top 15
99-00 his caps were #6
98-99 his caps were #19
97-98 his caps were #4


RW has a history of being a good special teams coach, and we have some players that should combine for a reasonable power-play.

I was waiting for these stats. You are also forgetting one thing here. He had a stacked team in sjs and Jagr in washington those are huge advantages. Yes he did have the 16th best powerplay in the league in 08-09 but they also had the 30th overal penalty killing in the league as did they this past season. Also the 05-06 season you failed to mention the pk it was 23rd overal, you can't leave some stats out to try to aid you argument. Also note that in 08-09 after wilson SJS was 3rd pp/5th pk and last year 4th pp/5th pk and that pp is even with a horrible second half point production from joe thornton.

Since hiring ron wilson no team has had a worse penalty kill in all of hockey than the leafs. Power play can be argued, as Kareem did, as a personal deal because you need people to put it in the net. So that stat may improve but I doubt a whole lot as they had Dion since January and I doubt that versteeg will turn things around single handedly. However you have had one of the best pp QB's in the league for the past few years and it should reflect that.

You can also argue personal for pk as well and if you current leafs past years of their careers toronto has some great pk'ers especially on the back end, yet they have been 30th the last two years. How come? I see wilson as a horrid special teams guy, yes his systems may have worked when he had exceptional players but a good coach can adapt and find a way to make the players he has more effective. He has not done so which imo makes him a bad special teams coach.

Mark my words when wilson is fired that teams power play and penalty kill stats will improve drastically.

O/T I really dont understand why the leafs numbers during wilson's reigh in SJS were relevant? Toronto is a totally different team compared to then.

When Wilson first took over SJS, they were a mediocre team, it wasn't until Joe Thornton was added that they really took on an elite status (personnel wise). Nonetheless Wilson was consistently able to get strong production out of the pk unit, likewise on Washington (Jagr has no bearing on the pk). You are correct in pointing out that the Leafs PK is dead last in the NHL since Wilson took over the coaching duties, but it has also been dead last in the NHL since the lockout (under three different coaching staffs). The only constant during all that time is below below average goaltending. Now I'm not one to place sole blame on goaltending, I think it's a 50/50 blame game with defense taking on a shared responsibility in the PK's failures. That said, since acquiring Dion Phaneuf and JS Giguere the Leafs pk was among the best in the NHL. One would think that improvement, combined with a healthy Mike Komisarek, and additions of Kris Versteeg and Mike Brown would lead to increased effectiveness on the PK (not neccasarilly tops in the league), but improved nonetheless.

With regards to the Leafs PP, I don't think we can use last season (since the trade), as an effective comparison to this year. For starters, there was no chemistry between Phaneuf and Kaberle, which ultimately eliminated our effectiveness from the point, that has since changed. Two, Bozak was still emerging as our #1 centerman, and thus was nowhere near the down low prescence he has been in camp thus far. Three, the Leafs lacked a legitimate down low cross crease/cycle play because we lacked the personnel up front to complete it. Kessel was the only one, Bozak was still learning the rigours of the NHL, and Kulemin was ineffective as a cyclist.

I know it doesn't sound like alot, but the puck possesion ability of Versteeg appears to have made everything click down low. Bozak is a tremendous passer, and cyclist, but without a second option his passes (cross crease to Kessel, one timer on the point) become predictable and easy to intercept. Versteeg slows down the flow of the game long enough to shift the opposistions box, which in turn creates a third and fourth option on the pp: cycle play, cross crease pass, one timer from the point, and set up behind the net. The results have been tremendous thus far.

[Nick]

Still... Wilson has head-coached in the NHL for 16 CONSECUTIVE seasons, prior to that he was an assistant for 4 seasons (in Vancouver you'll recall).

His special team numbers are top end, his willingness to change tactics and integrate new technology has been leading edge from day 1, he's know to be brutally honest to his players and really doesn't pull his punches with anyone (GM's, media & players alike).... some people don't like that... but consistency is a positive

I really don't see him as the issue... PK we improved HUGE with Giggy in place of ToskLOL (literally best in the league final 15?), and our PP will improve with time as a unit ... our 3 right handed forwards paired with 2 left handed dmen provides some pretty cool movement, really changes the location of passing lanes.

[MSP4LYFE]

His special team numbers are top end, his willingness to change tactics and integrate new technology has been leading edge from day 1

I disagree, my main critique of Wilson is that he is unable to adapt his tactics to compliment his personnel, but rather needs a specific group of players to fit his system, and he's been using the same one for years. It's effective, no doubt, but not every team has the personnel to implement it effectively.

[shooker]

Still... Wilson has head-coached in the NHL for 16 CONSECUTIVE seasons, prior to that he was an assistant for 4 seasons (in Vancouver you'll recall).

His special team numbers are top end, his willingness to change tactics and integrate new technology has been leading edge from day 1, he's know to be brutally honest to his players and really doesn't pull his punches with anyone (GM's, media & players alike).... some people don't like that... but consistency is a positive

I really don't see him as the issue... PK we improved HUGE with Giggy in place of ToskLOL (literally best in the league final 15?), and our PP will improve with time as a unit ... our 3 right handed forwards paired with 2 left handed dmen provides some pretty cool movement, really changes the location of passing lanes.

you will never convince me ron wilson is a good coach. the only thing I like about him is the work ethic he demands (why I hate semin and other players, cant stand lazy). He has had a few great teams and has never been able to do it. I feel he is a short shelf life coach and his time will be done before christmas IMO. Lets just wait and see who is right.

and I agree kareem that is my complaint on him as well. He wants every player to change for him but wont budge for his players. That grows thin when you have a group of guys that dont fit.

[MSP4LYFE]

Still... Wilson has head-coached in the NHL for 16 CONSECUTIVE seasons, prior to that he was an assistant for 4 seasons (in Vancouver you'll recall).

His special team numbers are top end, his willingness to change tactics and integrate new technology has been leading edge from day 1, he's know to be brutally honest to his players and really doesn't pull his punches with anyone (GM's, media & players alike).... some people don't like that... but consistency is a positive

I really don't see him as the issue... PK we improved HUGE with Giggy in place of ToskLOL (literally best in the league final 15?), and our PP will improve with time as a unit ... our 3 right handed forwards paired with 2 left handed dmen provides some pretty cool movement, really changes the location of passing lanes.

you will never convince me ron wilson is a good coach. the only thing I like about him is the work ethic he demands (why I hate semin and other players, cant stand lazy). He has had a few great teams and has never been able to do it. I feel he is a short shelf life coach and his time will be done before christmas IMO. Lets just wait and see who is right.

and I agree kareem that is my complaint on him as well. He wants every player to change for him but wont budge for his players. That grows thin when you have a group of guys that dont fit.

I wish Carlyle or Babcock would get fired, they are without question the two best coaches IMO. Barry Trotz, and Lindy Ruff are a close three and four. I really like what I've seen from Cory Clouston in the early goings as well.

[inferno31]

I said it the minute he got fired in New york. Perry Pearn is likely one of the best special team coaches in the NHL especially defensively. But I also think the second Wilson gets fired the leafs special teams will be better, we don't have the talent to orchestrate his system. His system does work (See US Olympic team), and works well on very talented teams. Odds are we won't have that level of talent while he is a coach here. I'd rather we have a more cerebral coach anyway. But he isn't alone to blame for the numbers, because his system does work and he won't abandon it, but at the same time it won't work here with this group.

[shooker]

Still... Wilson has head-coached in the NHL for 16 CONSECUTIVE seasons, prior to that he was an assistant for 4 seasons (in Vancouver you'll recall).

His special team numbers are top end, his willingness to change tactics and integrate new technology has been leading edge from day 1, he's know to be brutally honest to his players and really doesn't pull his punches with anyone (GM's, media & players alike).... some people don't like that... but consistency is a positive

I really don't see him as the issue... PK we improved HUGE with Giggy in place of ToskLOL (literally best in the league final 15?), and our PP will improve with time as a unit ... our 3 right handed forwards paired with 2 left handed dmen provides some pretty cool movement, really changes the location of passing lanes.

you will never convince me ron wilson is a good coach. the only thing I like about him is the work ethic he demands (why I hate semin and other players, cant stand lazy). He has had a few great teams and has never been able to do it. I feel he is a short shelf life coach and his time will be done before christmas IMO. Lets just wait and see who is right.

and I agree kareem that is my complaint on him as well. He wants every player to change for him but wont budge for his players. That grows thin when you have a group of guys that dont fit.

I wish Carlyle or Babcock would get fired, they are without question the two best coaches IMO. Barry Trotz, and Lindy Ruff are a close three and four. I really like what I've seen from Cory Clouston in the early goings as well.

I could actually see a burke/carlyle reuinion. When aneheim misses the playoffs this year of when they struggle out of the gates I coul see his tenure coming to an end. You know burkie would snatch him up real quick, had him in vancouver(manitoba) and aneheim would be a great fit.

I also agree with the lindy ruff statement I dont know how that guy doesnt get more credit than he does. He could do wonders in toronto as well.

[Nick]

I hate Lindy.

[shooker]

I know I dont understand why though....

[MSP4LYFE]

I know I dont understand why though....

Simple, he's been a leafs killer for years.

[Nick]

no, i think he makes tons of coaching errors, I hate his post-game comments, he insults other coaches, refs and just seems to be a blame shifter in general.


add to that he's a pussy... i can smell it.

[shooker]

no, i think he makes tons of coaching errors, I hate his post-game comments, he insults other coaches, refs and just seems to be a blame shifter in general.


add to that he's a pussy... i can smell it.

if you are talking about those comments about tucker he was 100% right. cheap shotted someone then took a dive and played hurt......twice. Every coach makes errors, but the way he continuously make something out of nothing is something to admire