BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:57 am

I see
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Nick » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:57 am

Value due to listing errors is a very silly argument.

Scott last pre-season you cited Torts saying he was going to try Duby as a winger as good justification for him being a winger all season in the bbkl.
The subjective approach had people saying Zetty was a winger despite leading DET in FOT for 2 straight seasons.
A fan saying a player on 'their' team (Marleau most recently) is a centre simply does not work... during the discussion for this a CC member made that argument (not marleau) and ended up being wrong.

The subjective approach sucked balls - major balls.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Scott » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:26 pm

Dubie did play LW almost all last year. He just happened to take draws. Ask anyone who knows anything about the Rags.

This imposed system is fine but it will indeed lower the value of certain players and handcuff certain teams. But I guess having an advantage in fantasy sports isn't "fair" so it needs to be stopped. Quickly!
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:01 pm

The Devil wrote:Dubie did play LW almost all last year. He just happened to take draws. Ask anyone who knows anything about the Rags.

This imposed system is fine but it will indeed lower the value of certain players and handcuff certain teams. But I guess having an advantage in fantasy sports isn't "fair" so it needs to be stopped. Quickly!


LOL.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby MSP4LYFE » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:46 pm

Shep wrote:BUT HE IS NOT A CENTRE!

86% of his playing time is with FOT #1, #2, #3 on the team.

His faceoffs come from Penalty Killing and Thornton getting kicked out of draws for being so aggressive.


That is a legitimate argument, is there anyway we can dwindle down the list for players who meet this same criteria, I.E. take draws as a result of specialty teams, or circumstance but are legitimate W? Some wingers do take draws, so it seems like an appropriate to make that distinction.

Or perhaps, in the uncertain cases offer dual eligibility? Just a thought...
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby armandtanzarian » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:53 am

The battle rages on. This is a tough one. I understand the Zetterberg being center issue and fully agree that under the proposed system that is where he would be. But Marleau and now talk of Iginla being center. Come on! Iginla is probably the best RW power forward in the game and he is going to get tagged with being a center because he is on the ice in almost all situations and just happens to be the fallback when a player gets kicked out or if a set play is needed where he would take a draw? By removing dual eligibility there needs to be some special cases to look at! Someone already posted that but If Iginla gets tagged a center only, that would be the biggest fantasy injustice ever. Instead of trying to parallel the NHL we would be going backwards.

Like i stated earlier, I totally support Mik and mostly Nick in there work on this topic. It is difficult trying to remove subjectivity on such a subjective topic. I would love to use the proposed system but i think it would be kind of beneficial to implement an appeal process for each GM. Instead of having the midway review, why not allow GM's 2 Appeals per season. Obviously we would have to have sufficient sample size before changes could be made positionally. I just think with so much change in positions and scenarios and injuries in the NHL, we need to be flowing and keeping up to date just like the league and individual players in different situations.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby kyuss » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:07 am

mr. bruin wrote:The battle rages on. This is a tough one. I understand the Zetterberg being center issue and fully agree that under the proposed system that is where he would be. But Marleau and now talk of Iginla being center. Come on! Iginla is probably the best RW power forward in the game and he is going to get tagged with being a center because he is on the ice in almost all situations and just happens to be the fallback when a player gets kicked out or if a set play is needed where he would take a draw? By removing dual eligibility there needs to be some special cases to look at! Someone already posted that but If Iginla gets tagged a center only, that would be the biggest fantasy injustice ever. Instead of trying to parallel the NHL we would be going backwards.

Kyle, i understand there are basically 3 ongoing threads (+ the one in CC) on the same matter and that makes more difficult to follow everything, but Iginla was never appointed to be a winger. Never. Not even under the presented proposal, and we are actually going to make sure that wouldn't happen even if Calgary had traded their centers.
So basically unless he does indeed become a center in the future, he'll never be a center for BBKL.
That was the only major (albeit potential) flaw detected in the system so far (Jokinen, if ever needed it, gets solved as a consequence as well and this will provide some help against the speculations about having too many centers).

Like i stated earlier, I totally support Mik and mostly Nick in there work on this topic. It is difficult trying to remove subjectivity on such a subjective topic. I would love to use the proposed system but i think it would be kind of beneficial to implement an appeal process for each GM. Instead of having the midway review, why not allow GM's 2 Appeals per season. Obviously we would have to have sufficient sample size before changes could be made positionally. I just think with so much change in positions and scenarios and injuries in the NHL, we need to be flowing and keeping up to date just like the league and individual players in different situations.

please read my last post in the CC.
I think it easily solves this issue like you ask, and without creating a mess nor bringin in any kind of subjectivity or workload.
Going by your post, i guess you'll agree on that proposal.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby MSP4LYFE » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:42 am

mr. bruin wrote:The battle rages on. This is a tough one. I understand the Zetterberg being center issue and fully agree that under the proposed system that is where he would be. But Marleau and now talk of Iginla being center. Come on! Iginla is probably the best RW power forward in the game and he is going to get tagged with being a center because he is on the ice in almost all situations and just happens to be the fallback when a player gets kicked out or if a set play is needed where he would take a draw? By removing dual eligibility there needs to be some special cases to look at! Someone already posted that but If Iginla gets tagged a center only, that would be the biggest fantasy injustice ever. Instead of trying to parallel the NHL we would be going backwards.

Like i stated earlier, I totally support Mik and mostly Nick in there work on this topic. It is difficult trying to remove subjectivity on such a subjective topic. I would love to use the proposed system but i think it would be kind of beneficial to implement an appeal process for each GM. Instead of having the midway review, why not allow GM's 2 Appeals per season. Obviously we would have to have sufficient sample size before changes could be made positionally. I just think with so much change in positions and scenarios and injuries in the NHL, we need to be flowing and keeping up to date just like the league and individual players in different situations.


I'm not sure how many Calgary games you watched this year, I personally watched alot, so I can vouch for the fact that Iginla frequently played center on the (Tanguay - Jokinen - Iginla) line. Stajan went down for a sustained period this year, and there was a stretch where they had one or two centers (prior to signing BMO), compounded with the fact that Tanguay and Jokinen are poor on the draw and Iginla took more than his share of draws on many a night. He was not the "fall back" option as you alluded too, but rather the go to guy in certain instances. Granted, it was not enough to list him as a center, but to dismiss the potential of that occurrence altogether is naive.

The only injustice is debating positional changes on subjective grounds, at least Shep took the initiative to provide information (line combos) to demonstrate the fact that Marleau took face offs by circumstance and not position.
Last edited by MSP4LYFE on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby MSP4LYFE » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:46 am

kyuss wrote:Not even under the presented proposal, and we are actually going to make sure that wouldn't happen even if Calgary had traded their centers.


If that is the case, and I certainly hope it isn't, than Shep and whomever has every right in the world to be upset with this system, and I will support them. I am not suggesting that you list Iginla a center based on the current stats, but to state that he will never be listed a center unless he moves there full time is a slap in the face to every other comparable player you listed as a center on your list.

Iginla should be a winger because he doesn't fit your proposed criteria, not just because he is Jerome Iginla, which is the impression I got from the above statement. Correct me if I misinterpreted you in anyway.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:52 am

Marleau was the only one I was concerned about.

Ruutu was understandable, it just sucked, and the others are minor centres so I didn't care that much.

I tried to show as much as I could regarding Marleau, so now I'll wait to see what happens next season. No point in arguing anymore, my facts are out there.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby kyuss » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:14 am

MSP4LYFE wrote:
kyuss wrote:Not even under the presented proposal, and we are actually going to make sure that wouldn't happen even if Calgary had traded their centers.


If that is the case, and I certainly hope it isn't, than Shep and whomever has every right in the world to be upset with this system, and I will support them. I am not suggesting that you list Iginla a center based on the current stats, but to state that he will never be listed a center unless he moves there full time is a slap in the face to every other comparable player you listed as a center on your list.

Iginla should be a winger because he doesn't fit your proposed criteria, not just because he is Jerome Iginla, which is the impression I got from the above statement. Correct me if I misinterpreted you in anyway.

sorry, it looks i didn't explain myself well enough.

Iginla will be a winger because he won't meet the final criteria.
I was simply suggesting that i think it's very unlikely he will ever become a C under our criteria.
If that happens, so be it (will be due).
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby MSP4LYFE » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:30 am

I see, in that case I retract my statement.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby armandtanzarian » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:28 pm

You are right Kareem, He was not a fall back guy. wrong word. He would take some draws that were in the offensive zone on the right side or if someone was tossed. By saying fall back, I meant the next guy in line if the main center was thrown from the dot. Jokinen in most fantasy leagues is a RW/C i do believe. So basically if he was on the RW Iginla would be taking some draws. This is what is so difficult to determine. Every fantasy league has dual eligible players because in the real NHL there are actually people who play both positions. Those players hold some value. We are trying to eliminate those players and use a formula to determine who is a center only and who is a winger. There will be many obvious decision but there will also be those border line players that, imo, need individual review if the GM so requests it. Therefore using up one of there 2 alloted Positional Appeal Requests.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby bma » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:36 pm

First, I'd like to say I appreciate all the work Mik, Nick and the CC has put into this system. However, I think we are trying too hard in getting technical and making everything objective when it really isn't. Like Kyle alluded too, in the real NHL, there are players who play both Center and Wing. We are trying our best to mimic the NHL, yet we are forcing players who may actually play 2 positions to just 1 position in BBKL. As both Shep and Kyle have mentioned, there IS value for players who play wing and take draws as well. Don't get me wrong, I think this system has its strengths and some of its principles should be implemented but I don't think dual elig players should be elminated at all.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Nick » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:40 pm

Most fantasy leagues don't record FOW, most don't have full rosters with 30 teams... most don't have to worry about dual eligible players.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:00 pm

I just think it's hard to have guys like Marleau, J. Jokinen, Etc who are "on the brink" not have dual eligibility.

It's not like we're asking for Backes, Ott, Little, Giroux, Zetterberg, etc or other 500+ FOW players to have dual eligibility.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Nick » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:09 pm

The thing with Marleau is that he's not on the brink.

Jussi, yes very much so, low FOT, low FOR, lack of centres on the Canes makes him close.

However Marleau takes lots of draws, more then lots of centres, he does so with a high rank on his team in FOT, and has a face-of-ratio above lots of other guys (even given his very high TOI).

We have a rule adjustment coming -> just getting final comments I believe.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:11 pm

facey wrote:The thing with Marleau is that he's not on the brink.

Jussi, yes very much so, low FOT, low FOR, lack of centres on the Canes makes him close.

However Marleau takes lots of draws, more then lots of centres, he does so with a high rank on his team in FOT, and has a face-of-ratio above lots of other guys (even given his very high TOI).

Very have a rule adjustment coming -> just getting final comments I believe.

I'm just saying when he plays 86% of his time with the 3 guys with more FOT than him, you know it's majority of them either getting kicked out, or Marleau on the PK.

But I digress.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby kyuss » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:24 pm

bcool wrote:First, I'd like to say I appreciate all the work Mik, Nick and the CC has put into this system. However, I think we are trying too hard in getting technical and making everything objective when it really isn't. Like Kyle alluded too, in the real NHL, there are players who play both Center and Wing. We are trying our best to mimic the NHL, yet we are forcing players who may actually play 2 positions to just 1 position in BBKL. As both Shep and Kyle have mentioned, there IS value for players who play wing and take draws as well. Don't get me wrong, I think this system has its strengths and some of its principles should be implemented but I don't think dual elig players should be elminated at all.

couple of things i'd like to underline:
- dual position would basically mean wingers for BBKL purposes.
- wingers that take draws will still have value; point is, if they meet our final criteria to be center it very probably means they have been playing center for at least a part of last season (or part of games anyway), so it's not unrealistic if next season they will spend some time as center in BBKL.
- positions will not be set in stone. They will be updated and fixed if wrong.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Nick » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:24 pm

mr. bruin wrote: We are trying to eliminate those players and use a formula to determine who is a center only and who is a winger. There will be many obvious decision but there will also be those border line players that, imo, need individual review if the GM so requests it. Therefore using up one of there 2 alloted Positional Appeal Requests.


Subjective appeals will lead to nothing but future issues. The CC has attempted to hear and make use of the comments and criticisms put forth by the BBKL members and have an amendment coming.


Not to push the Marleau issue, however if you take all the arguments you guys are presenting at face-value (eeek), he plays 5v5 with lots of full time centres, he PKs with 3 other full time centres, and he plays on the wing or the point on the power play, however last year he took 550 draws, roughly 380 even strength, another 50 on the power play, and 120ish short handed. Placing him on their top 4 for FOT & a FOR of .32 .... something is missing and that's exactly why subjective views (don't &) won't work.

Now, if you're right and he really should be a winger next year, we're working on a shorter review period for #4 ranked centres from the previous year with a FOR <.4 --> so that if he's really not playing much centre and it was an artifact of other confounding variables it will be corrected in short order. Still waiting to hear from the other CC/admin guys though.
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