BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Anything goes here OT stuff is OK too!

Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:24 pm

Great.

This is quite possibly the worst thing that could have happened to my team.

We can dress a max of 5 C right?
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby kyuss » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:25 pm

Shep wrote:Can we make a case ... even if they are top 4 in C .. because there are so many factors that are not even considered here such as injuries.

which are the specific factors not considered in Marleau's case for example?

even if he were out of the top 4 and below 450 fot, his FOR still is > 0.3

he is a center by all 3 criteria.
It doesn't mean Marleau is a pure center, but he probably deserves to be a C in our game right now.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Nick » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:31 pm

Shep wrote:We can dress a max of 5 C right?


Yep. 5 centres, no more dual eligible loop-holes, just 3-5 guys on each BBKL active rosters taking consistent draws.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:34 pm

Maybe I missed it in the first post, but how did you come up with 0.3 as some number to use?
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:35 pm

kyuss wrote:
Shep wrote:Can we make a case ... even if they are top 4 in C .. because there are so many factors that are not even considered here such as injuries.

which are the specific factors not considered in Marleau's case for example?

even if he were out of the top 4 and below 450 fot, his FOR still is > 0.3

he is a center by all 3 criteria.
It doesn't mean Marleau is a pure center, but he probably deserves to be a C in our game right now.

Yes, that's fine. But it should be ESTOI.

A lot of players don't play their normal positions on PP and SH.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:46 pm

I'm re-posting this in the main thread.

Only 64% of Marleaus faceoffs were at even strength.

75% of Marleaus ice time was at ES.

So that is one way showing his FOT are primarily special teams, and its more importantly primarily PK.

25% of his faceoffs are taken at SH

Whereas only 10% of his ice time is shorthanded.

Being their #1 PK forward, he takes SO many more faceoffs because he's the best PK forward, followed by Pavelski (a centre).

Marleau plays Centre on the PK, I'll agree with that. But that should not make or break something this critical in this league.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:49 pm

For fucks sake..

86% of his Even Strength Ice time is spent with the 3 centres that have more FOT than him.

How the hell can you call Marleau a centre?

Frequency Strength Line Combination
79.07% EV 39 COUTURE,LOGAN - 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 19 THORNTON,JOE
3.49% EV 39 COUTURE,LOGAN - 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 8 PAVELSKI,JOE
3.49% EV 39 COUTURE,LOGAN - 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 17 MITCHELL,TORREY

2.33% EV 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 10 MAYERS,JAMAL - 17 MITCHELL,TORREY
2.33% EV 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 10 MAYERS,JAMAL - 19 THORNTON,JOE
2.33% EV 29 CLOWE,RYANE - 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 8 PAVELSKI,JOE
2.33% EV 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 16 SETOGUCHI,DEVIN - 19 THORNTON,JOE
1.16% EV 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 8 PAVELSKI,JOE - 16 SETOGUCHI,DEVIN
1.16% EV 29 CLOWE,RYANE - 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 20 WELLWOOD,KYLE
1.16% EV 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 8 PAVELSKI,JOE - 19 THORNTON,JOE
1.16% EV 15 HEATLEY,DANY - 12 MARLEAU,PATRICK - 20 WELLWOOD,KYLE
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Nick » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:58 pm

Shep. In our stats based fantasy league he took 549 draws. We restrict # of centers because only so many guys can play centre in a given group of forwards on any 1 team. Small piece of forced structure on our fantasy rosters (similar to 1 goalie & 1 backup).

5 guys consistently taking draws, need to classify the position by who takes draws, and as is the case whenever there is a line drawn in the sand, some guys will be very close to either side of the line.

Yes this is annoying for you now, but it's a major improvement for the league.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby MSP4LYFE » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:59 pm

^I completely agree
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby kyuss » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:03 pm

Shep wrote:Maybe I missed it in the first post, but how did you come up with 0.3 as some number to use?

it's a number that seemed to work consistently when going through some testing..
a guy that i took as reference was Iginla. Even if he took faceoffs last year, i thought he was an example of a guy who is still clearly a winger and needed to stay put, so i wanted the FOR limit to have some separation from his number.

Shep wrote:Yes, that's fine. But it should be ESTOI.

A lot of players don't play their normal positions on PP and SH.

i see your point, but generally speaking, it goes both way. Some guys play the PP taking less FO than they do at ES.

More importantly, for our game purposes what really matters about centers/wingers are faceoff totals, no matter where (ES,PP,SH) they are recorded.
The need to make this as simple as possible suggested not to go into special teams splits and such.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:57 pm

facey wrote:Shep. In our stats based fantasy league he took 549 draws. We restrict # of centers because only so many guys can play centre in a given group of forwards on any 1 team. Small piece of forced structure on our fantasy rosters (similar to 1 goalie & 1 backup).

5 guys consistently taking draws, need to classify the position by who takes draws, and as is the case whenever there is a line drawn in the sand, some guys will be very close to either side of the line.

Yes this is annoying for you now, but it's a major improvement for the league.

Whatever, no matter what I do nothing is going to get changed, so I'm not going to bother. There needs to be subjectivity.

When a Sharks fan says Marleau is a LW, that says something.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:58 pm

We should probably look at hits and limit teams to only having "X" amount of players with 50+ hits.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Robin Hood » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:59 pm

Shep wrote:We should probably look at hits and limit teams to only having "X" amount of players with 50+ hits.


Shep, I agree with you 100%. There was a time last year where I argued with Nick for infinity. But frankly the argument isn't really worth it. And I'm not saying that to put down Nick. I mean rationally:

--->It is not that Nick's/Mik's logic is not sound <--- it actually makes sense to me. My only problem with it has been that BBKL began with a certain way of evaluating "dual-eligible" players i.e. Backes/Marleau/Zetterberg etc. Changing their eligibility changes value of them going forward, yet fucks the gms who paid value for them based on our older system.

However...with this new system:

1. FOW which is a category used to give the benefit to prime FOW takers actually works the way it should. I.e. a team with Crosby, Getzlaf, Richards, Toews, Koivu could still lose to a team in the FOW category with Backes, Marleau, Giroux, Ott + 5 fantasy centers. It is not that the 2nd group isnt an elite team in FOW. But it is that in an actual game-->the former would likely dominate the faceoff circle. This point is important because Crosby's value as a player has some value in the fact that he is one of the best faceoff takers in the game. Just like Stamkos' value relates to his ability to score goals or Clutterbuck's value has to do with his hits.
2. Yes gms get fucked for these dual eligible guys but I think the "getting fucked" amount is sort of spread out among a lot of gms. Even still it is the part that bothers me but at this point it is kind of what needs to happen.
3. Good gms will find a way to adjust. If you had a guy on your team who had shit h2h value but was on that roster ONLY because he had fow from the wing, then that guy shouldnt be on your team anyways. that is loop-hole finding. most of these dual-eligible guys are stellar h2h guys. they still have good value.
4. This is part of what needs to happen in the evolution of BBKL.

On principle I hate it too. But it is better than running a stats based league, where the stats skew reality.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby MSP4LYFE » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:23 am

Shep wrote:We should probably look at hits and limit teams to only having "X" amount of players with 50+ hits.


No need to be irrational...Every player can register hits, only a center can take draws. The two situations couldn't be any more different.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby hong57 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:24 am

just wondering when the list comes out and every team has like e.g. 7-8 centres (real nhl teams i mean), which is a lot IMO.. will the criteria be adjusted?
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby hong57 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:25 am

MSP4LYFE wrote:
Shep wrote:We should probably look at hits and limit teams to only having "X" amount of players with 50+ hits.


No need to be irrational...Every player can register hits, only a center can take draws. The two situations couldn't be any more different.


agree with kareem on this matter
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby kyuss » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:50 am

Shep wrote:Whatever, no matter what I do nothing is going to get changed, so I'm not going to bother. There needs to be subjectivity.

i really disagree on this... that would bring endless arguments. And i'd rather have 2 'unfair' situations determined by real world stats than 1 unfair situation determined by a competitor. Especially when moving forward you will be able to see eventual new positions coming, unlike what could happen under a method affected by subjectivity (yes, "affected").

When a Sharks fan says Marleau is a LW, that says something.

the point is, it says something about real hockey, but less about our fantasy game.
I mean, our teams actually don't go out on the ice, they record stats instead. What really defines our centers are faceoffs, there is no other way around it, and that's why the CC (not me for that matter) decided to go after a system that cared about faceoffs numbers ahead of real even strength forwards positions on the ice.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby kyuss » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:15 am

hong57 wrote:just wondering when the list comes out and every team has like e.g. 7-8 centres (real nhl teams i mean), which is a lot IMO.. will the criteria be adjusted?

a couple of things to consider:

- having a NHL team with 8 centers on the list wouldn't mean necessarily that such team does have 8 centers; among those 8 you could find rookies, players in the minors.. if it's 8 among the regular players (-> with a lot of GP), then you have a point.

- in the NHL your standard lineup has more than 6 real wingers. On the contrary, our system allows to dress as few as 6 wingers, and that will happen quite regularly.

- last season, in respect with such lineup system, our league had an abundance of wingers and a shortage of centers, so the fact per se we will add more centers than wingers it's natural.


This being said, the numbers of the criteria could be adjusted if it turns out the league (not some teams) would have too many centers and not enough wingers, but i would expect the adjustment to be small, nothing that would make Marleau a winger, cause otherwise to fix one unlucky case we would probably screw a few more..
99% of players in the top 4 or above 450fot are indeed centers, if that doesn't work for Marleau you would have to find a non-subjective reasoned expeption that could be applied and work on other players as well.
But again, that would go against the simple principle we are following here: a player that contributes so much to the FO stat should belong to our category of players specific for that stat: Centers.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby armandtanzarian » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:29 am

See Boston Bruins. They trades for Kelly and Peverley after already having 4-5 centers. Campbell, Krejci, Bergeron, Seguin. Now they have 6. I fought the same argument Shep, but too no avail. I think Nick and Mik put in a great deal of time in this and they have done some great work and it is a rule that will help some and hurt others in the meantime. In the long run it will be beneficial. I think there will still be some special cases due to injury. I will have to make some changes on my team as will others but I do like the system and approve of it. At least my trade of Marleau for Zetterberg is positionally equal now. Both centers. If anything this is giving more value to those high end centers and lowering value on the 400-700 FOT centers like Marleau and Zetterberg. But its not that bad. Everything will be good with this new system.
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Re: BBKL policy for Centers and Wingers

Postby Shep » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:51 am

mr. bruin wrote:See Boston Bruins. They trades for Kelly and Peverley after already having 4-5 centers. Campbell, Krejci, Bergeron, Seguin. Now they have 6. I fought the same argument Shep, but too no avail. I think Nick and Mik put in a great deal of time in this and they have done some great work and it is a rule that will help some and hurt others in the meantime. In the long run it will be beneficial. I think there will still be some special cases due to injury. I will have to make some changes on my team as will others but I do like the system and approve of it. At least my trade of Marleau for Zetterberg is positionally equal now. Both centers. If anything this is giving more value to those high end centers and lowering value on the 400-700 FOT centers like Marleau and Zetterberg. But its not that bad. Everything will be good with this new system.

After sleeping on it, I know the system is good (though I knew it was good yesterday, too). It's just frustrating when you go from having 4 Centres and 8 Wingers to 7 Centres and 5 Wingers. And I'm not talking about 500+ FOW from the wing, that would be stupid for me to argue. I'm talking 200-300 FOW, so my stud wingers have become pretty good centres, because they aren't getting the amount of FOW as your top line centres. Now I'll have to trade them or suffer the FOW category every week, and keep my periphery centres because of the large difference in FOW.

This year, if Nichol wasn't hurt Marleau would have been 5th on the team in FOW (though I guess that 0.3 thing would work against him because of PK FOW)
Last year, Marleau was 5th on the team, because of a healthy Nichol, in FOW (though again, 0.3 probably would have worked against him because of the PK FOW)
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