2018 Draft Discussion

Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby kyuss » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:25 am

bills09 wrote:Precedence states the pick move back though as it has been with other Gms.

?
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby dave1959 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:58 am

KapG wrote:
Da_Hawks wrote:
KapG wrote:is what it is I guess.

I definitely feel like I got the short end of the stick in this entire situation though. Especially in such an important draft.

Sjs just lucks out that shiv quits. Very weak.


SJS benefits greatly from Chicago being crappy. Had there been a GP punishment, I wouldn't have made ANY trades. The end result would have been the same, or worse because I could have passed you. Instead of 1 and 3, you could have 1 and 4 or 5. Just be happy man.


You know I only own my own ranger 1st right? Why should I be happy that the team with the Chicago pick doesn’t get it moved back because “a new GM came in half way through the year so no GP penalties to be imposed”. I should essentially be looking at 1st prelottery, second at worst...

Fuck that. It’s not like shiv hasn’t already quit this league on like 3 separate occasions prior to this time, yet the CC kept letting him back in.


Not ALL the CC....
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby Arian The Insider » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:10 am

Shiv quit once before he was let back in by the league, from what I remember.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby Da_Hawks » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:12 am

KapG wrote:
Da_Hawks wrote:
KapG wrote:is what it is I guess.

I definitely feel like I got the short end of the stick in this entire situation though. Especially in such an important draft.

Sjs just lucks out that shiv quits. Very weak.


SJS benefits greatly from Chicago being crappy. Had there been a GP punishment, I wouldn't have made ANY trades. The end result would have been the same, or worse because I could have passed you. Instead of 1 and 3, you could have 1 and 4 or 5. Just be happy man.


You know I only own my own ranger 1st right? Why should I be happy that the team with the Chicago pick doesn’t get it moved back because “a new GM came in half way through the year so no GP penalties to be imposed”. I should essentially be looking at 1st prelottery, second at worst...

Fuck that. It’s not like shiv hasn’t already quit this league on like 3 separate occasions prior to this time, yet the CC kept letting him back in.


Sorry chief, got my teams mixed up again - thought you were the SJS GM complaining again. My bad.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:21 am

bills09 wrote:Precedence states the pick move back though as it has been with other Gms.

Yah, quite honestly I feel this is bullshit

Pick should still be dropped back. Only reason it isn’t is because a prior GM who had quit multiple times decided to quit once again.

I’m really the only team getting the shaft.

Chicago doesn’t pay a penalty And sharks GM doesn’t see his Chicago pick get moved back because a new GM took over halfway through the season. If shiv stays, that pick gets moved back.

How’s that fair to me and every other GM who has had a pick affected by something like this?
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:22 am

Arian The Insider wrote:Shiv quit once before he was let back in by the league, from what I remember.

He’s quit I believe three times now.

Even if it’s twice, that’s too many. Everyone knows/knew there’s a history of Shiv getting disinterested
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:24 am

Id still love someone to explain to me why San Jose shark GM is allowed to luck out and not have that pick moved just because a new GM took over that team.

Like...the team that finished ahead of me (or below, depending on how you wanna look at it) didn’t make GP. It’s simple, the pick should be moved back. It’s not like hawks would have even been affected by the penalty since he doesn’t own that pick...

This is leaving a super sour taste in my mouth because I’m the only fucking person this is affecting lol.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby Shoalzie » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:35 am

I can understand your concern Kyle but I don't see it as "lucking out" as much as it's about not getting further brought down by the lack of inactivity from Shiv before he left the league. Josh acquired the Chicago pick back in June of 2016. Shiv's team wasn't nearly as bad as it has become due to lack of activity. I'm sure Shiv's change in attitude towards the league wasn't done to benefit Josh either.

With a top 3 lottery system in place...there's no added advantage to being in the 1st position when you consider no picks in the top 4 in last year's lottery ended up in the top 3 of the first round.

I guess we'll find out in April if there really was an advantage gained by all this.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:42 am

Shivs team was brutal last year as well Shoalzie. I picked 10th with the Chicago 2017 pick. His inactivity didn’t really have anything to do with his team being bad. He made several bad trades and couldn’t dig himself out of that hole so he got bored and quit.

And if you look at your percentages to stay in the top 3; I’d say (and I’m rounding here) 50% vs 30% is a large number.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby Arian The Insider » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:43 am

KapG wrote:
Arian The Insider wrote:Shiv quit once before he was let back in by the league, from what I remember.

He’s quit I believe three times now.

Even if it’s twice, that’s too many. Everyone knows/knew there’s a history of Shiv getting disinterested

1st time: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7766&hilit=quit

Recent time: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14661&p=281197#p281197

I don't see any more..
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby Shoalzie » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:59 am

With the way Shiv constructed his teams for as long as we've known him...he was very much all-in because he's carried next to nothing in the way of picks or prospects. He puts all his assets towards strengthening his active roster.

For several years, he had a contending team. If his team ever was to go downhill (which it eventually did)...he never seemed to have the stomach for doing a proper teardown and start over with picks and prospects. Unfortunately for whomever was going to take over his team...they'd have to deal with that tough process.

When Shiv didn't seem to ever own his own 1st round picks...he hasn't been accountable for where those picks ended up. It's only been recently that his 1sts have been in the lottery.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:08 am

Something should still be done about that pick since that team missed GP. This is where I say Sjs lucks out.

If Shiv’s still here that pick drops and I’m first prelottery. Now because he got bored and quit, SJS gets to move up to first prelottery because “no penalty” and I have to stay in 3rd....

Explain where this is fair to the team in my position lol
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:15 am

Form of compensation when gp is missed and you don’t own the first rounder anymore is a penalty in the form of payment of an extra first to the GM who owns the pick. That’s what happened to Paul iirc.


This pick being moved back is just written rules. Not having to pay compensation in the form of extra picks from da hawks to sjs is fair. But the pick not dropping is not. Once again, I’m the only person this is negatively affecting yet I’m not even part of the entire situation.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby Shoalzie » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:24 am

For the new GM to have to pay Josh compensation for Shiv's inactivity...that's definitely not helping a struggling franchise. Shiv's departure was a bit more complicated than most departures given the poor condition the team was left in and the unenviable task of trying to make something out of what's left of the roster.

We can talk about it with the CC. I think idea was to not punish further whomever was going to take over for Shiv. Josh does gain a bit of an advantage here but again...it's not as if he's guaranteed to pick #1.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:29 am

Bottom line here is that I’m also a struggling franchise and I’m getting the shaft here, bad as far as I’m concerned because there’s a huge difference between having a 50% chance to stay in the top 3 vs having a 30% chance.

This also affects waiver draft as well. I should be looking at 1st overall in the waiver, but I get shafted there as well.

If the cc wants to help out the new GM in some way with extra picks to josh or whatever then fine, but why should I pay the price??? It was also the CCs fault for letting shiv back in the league when he has a history of doing stuff like this. So now I’m also paying the price for the CCs poor judgment.

It’s not fair at all really
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby Shoalzie » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:42 am

You're not making bad points here, Kyle. It can be discussed further.
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby kyuss » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:43 am

KapG wrote:Shivs team was brutal last year as well Shoalzie. I picked 10th with the Chicago 2017 pick. His inactivity didn’t really have anything to do with his team being bad. He made several bad trades and couldn’t dig himself out of that hole so he got bored and quit.

right, and? he is not the pick owner, so I don't get what's your point here.

KapG wrote:Id still love someone to explain to me why San Jose shark GM is allowed to luck out and not have that pick moved just because a new GM took over that team.

premise: I'm going off memory here as I don't have the time right now to go back through regulations & precedents (someone like Matthew who's been more on top of these things will probably be able to confirm and correct), but I think Sharks GM lucking out has nothing to do with Shiv quitting. If Shiv was still in the league his pick would be SJosh's property anyway, so a sanction on Shiv would not be applied to a pick he doesn't own anymore.

I'm not sure you're keeping in mind how the system works: to get adjusted is the team's final position in the standings (actually, its points, and as a possible result the team's position, hence its pick position). The pick gets moved IF the position in the standings changes as a result of the adjustments in points, i.e. gets adjusted to what we can assume the position would be if not for missing GP. Beyond that, the pick only gets moved back (as a sanction) if owned by the offending GM, which is not this case.

So basically it turns out your pick position didn't get affected by Shiv's former team missing GP, so why should your pick be ahead of CHI 1st?
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:51 am

Ummm if shiv was still here and he missed gp the Chicago pick that sharks own would still be moved back Mik. It’s happened with Paul before. To make up for the drop in position he had to pay compensation to the team who owned his pick iirc. So yes, sharks GM is lucking out that shiv quit. I owned Detroit pick back in 2013 or so and he was going to miss GP and that pick still ended up dropping.


What is all this magical math you’re talking about Mik? I know Matthew talked about it in earlier posts too. This should be a black and white issue. GP was missed, no penalty is being enforced thus leaving me holding the short stick. Not fair
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby KapG » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:52 am

Shoalzie wrote:You're not making bad points here, Kyle. It can be discussed further.

Thanks

Hopefully I’m not coming across as too abrasive. Just trying to fight for my team here
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Re: 2018 Draft Discussion

Postby kyuss » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:55 am

KapG wrote:Ummm if shiv was still here and he missed gp the Chicago pick that sharks own would still be moved back Mik. It’s happened with Paul before.
iirc, only if the amount of missed gp would result in a change in the adjusted final standings.

To make up for the drop in position he had to pay compensation to the team who owned his pick iirc

in case the adjusted standings resulted in the pick dropping, than Shiv (if still in the league) would have had to pay compensation to the GM currently owning the pick (unless the GM acquired such pick when CHI was already averaging gp below GP minimum )
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